Tackle Tuesday
Tackle Tuesday is a podcast series that tackles different issues in the workplace. Grab a coffee and join me on Tuesdays where we will explore topics such as, leading with emotion, diversity and inclusion, and how to create resilient and agile work cultures. Together we will explore issues people within organizations are tackling today and strategies that will support them in creating workplaces that are filled with possibility.
Tackle Tuesday
Empowering Women in Leadership | Season 5 | Ep. 1
SUMMARY
The first episode of Season 5 dives into the evolution of female leadership, discussing the historical progression and the challenges women face today. It engages listeners in reflection on leadership dynamics and emphasizes the importance of inclusivity across all genders in this ongoing conversation.
HIGHLIGHTS
• Examining the historical context of women's rights and leadership
• Discussing the waves of feminism and their relevance
• Highlighting leadership styles more common among women
• Introducing the concept of the leadership labyrinth and its implications
• Exploring barriers that impede women's advancement in the workplace
CALL TO ACTION
Check out our transformational leadership program for women! Click here to learn more:
Woman Up! Ignite the Leader in You Cohort 7
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Send us an email
Connect with Johanna on LinkedIn
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Best practices and pitfalls of change management process
Welcome everyone to Season 5 of Tackle Tuesday podcast series. It has been a while. I had to refresh my memory when we wrapped up Season 4, and it looks like the last episode of Season 4 that we published was June 24th and that focused on change management, measuring and evaluating change. So we hope you missed us. We missed you and we're really excited to get back into it. Katie and I have been planning season five for a while. We just got really busy, which isn't a bad thing, right? I mean, we're not. Our profession isn't podcasters? We kind of do this as a side hustle to keep us connected to what's happening in the world and to give back to our listeners and to our clients. But sometimes our clients take precedence, so we put this on pause. But we are back and we're excited to let you know that season five is really going to focus on women and leadership, which is something I'm very passionate about, something I've been wanting to focus on for a while, so really excited that we're finally here. Katie, how are you?
Katie Allan:I'm good. I'm really excited that we were just saying we've dusted off the headsets for get our podcasting voices sounding nice. Yes, we've been busy. I'm eager to jump into this season. It's gonna be a really fun one.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:And so, katie, you may not know, but my season one was really focusing on, obviously, tackling organizational issues that we experienced today. But every so often I would have a special episode called Taco Tuesday and that episode would focus on a woman in a position of leadership where she would share her experiences, her challenges and lessons learned for other women. So I was getting ready to launch Women Up at that point and I thought this would be great if we could support women in the workplace by focusing a couple of episodes on that. So it's really neat to come back and just focus a whole podcast season and it coincides with the launch of our cohort seven of Women Up Ignite the Leader in you, which starts March 18th, I think it is, and runs until May 6th. So we're going to be promoting that program through the podcast as well and providing links that, if you want to learn more about it and you want to sign up, you most definitely can. It's a great program and Katie and I get a lot out of it, especially because of the participants that come and the lessons that we learn from there as well. All right, so let's just jump into it, okay. So episode one is titled the Evolution of Female Leadership. So, if you're familiar with season three and four, we have a co-host podcast style in the way that we deliver our podcasts.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:This year is going to be a bit different. Episode one and the last episode will just be Katie and I to launch things and then wrap them up, but in between we're going to go back to our roots and we're going to invite a guest. So every episode will have a theme, like season three and four have, and we will invite a guest that has expertise and experience in this theme, and so some of the themes will be focused around mentorship, networking, the challenges of breaking through the glass ceiling, what it's like to be the only woman in a male-dominated organization, and so that's a little hint into a sneak peek as to what will be coming, and we're really excited. Some of the guests that we will have on have a ton of experience, have overcome a lot of challenges, and I think, whether you're a woman and or a man and we hope both listen you'll get a lot out of this. As a woman, obviously, what you can learn and how maybe you can navigate your organizational landscape, but if you're a guy, this is great If you want to know how to be a better ally and support women and maybe even shift things in your organization. There'll be great nuggets along the way around how you can do that.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:So this podcast is for you as much as it is for women. So, going back to the title the Evolution of Female Leadership. So the way this will be structured is we always have our reflection questions at the beginning, we have wrap-up questions, and Katie has brought in some really great articles that will kick off the season and situate the season not only within research, but best practice as well. Part of what we're going to do today is explore the historical progression and key milestones in women leadership, so I can't wait for that. So we're going to talk a little bit about the history and evolution of feminism and we're going to talk a little bit about why maybe some people are allergic to the word feminism. Okay, katie, I'm going to hand it over to you.
Katie Allan:Perfect, okay. Well, I think you did a good job of setting up what the season entails and our excitement about being able to focus on women in leadership, so I'll just take a second talk a little bit about why we decided to focus on this. We have some very good guests lined up, as you said, some women with some very inspiring and moving stories, hoping we can still sprinkle in some of what the research tells us, some of our own observations, experience from our professional lives, but also, as we've consulted and supported so many women working in male-dominated fields. So, yeah, it's going to be a lot of fun. And so we know that focusing on women in leadership is important for so many reasons and, despite progress made, women still face unique challenges and barriers in the workplace, and we'll have episodes dedicated to really diving into that. And we felt by spotlighting the stories, strategies and successes of women leaders, we can really inspire and empower others. That's a lot of what comes out of our Women Up leadership program is women coming together in a space where they can learn and hear and be inspired by others is really quite magical, so we want to replicate some of that here in the podcast. So I wanted to also talk about how these episodes really do benefit anyone of all genders.
Katie Allan:These conversations really matter and are important. So diverse leadership benefits everyone and we know there's so many studies that consistently show organizations with diverse leadership teams perform better. So being able to showcase the experience of women inevitably in some of our guests and conversations other aspects of intersectionality and other components of identity in addition to being a woman will likely come up. But diverse teams are often very strong teams, so important for us to see what we can learn from that Equity in the workplace. So achieving gender equity is not just a woman's issue, it's really a societal issue and that's really a belief that Joanna and I agree on, and so we feel inviting all folks to come and to listen and to reflect is so important for us to create inclusive environments, breaking stereotypes and biases.
Katie Allan:We talk a lot about this in a lot of the leadership programming that we do and by trying to develop an empathetic understanding of others'. Experience often comes from stories and really relating and hearing to what folks have to say who may have had different experiences than us. So all the more reason for us to highlight that in how we intend to approach the conversations this season and, yeah, I think these are really some of the benefits that we see to doing a season like this, and hopefully some of that excites you to learn a little bit more. So, yeah, I think I'll leave it there and ask you, joanna, to guide us into our reflection section.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:Okay, so, as I mentioned, as we typically do when we kick off an episode, we do always we have a reflection question, because it can help bring more meaning to this topic and help you situate it in your own life and your own experience as well. Right Sets the tone, it encourages thoughtful engagement and gives you a chance to just pause right and even maybe challenge your belief and mindset around some of these the topics that we're going to be discussing. So and if you listen to any of our other episodes, like, emotional intelligence is something that we talk a lot about, and the first step in working at enhancing your emotional intelligence is increasing your self-awareness. So self-reflection questions can really help you enhance your self-awareness. So here is the first question.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:So I'm going to share two, I think, powerful reflection questions. So here's the first one. It's a two-part question. So what does leadership mean to you and how have the women in your life shaped that understanding? So I'll say it again what does leadership mean to you and how have women in your life shaped that understanding? All right, the second question is what are the barriers that women face in your industry or organization and what role can you and hopefully do you play in addressing them. Okay, great, so hopefully you gained some really neat insights. We always do say share your insights from these reflection questions with us, right, like? I mean, we have our contact info in the notes. You can send us an email, you can connect with us through LinkedIn. We'd love to hear some impactful insights that you have from not just these reflection questions, but the ones that will be coming in future episodes.
Katie Allan:Okay, katie, did we want to maybe share. Do you have any thoughts on either of those questions? I know these are really big questions. I thought you were going to put me on the spot, so I was starting to prepare my thoughts. I'm a little rusty.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:Yes, you're right. In the past we answer our own initial thoughts. Yeah, okay, what does leadership mean to me? I mean a lot of it is shaped from my own research, which is interesting because a lot of the research that I did, the majority of the people in my participants were men. That was a limitation of the research study. It was done in a law enforcement context and most there was a significant leadership gender gap in law enforcement organizations. So it's not a surprise that the majority of my participants were men and the things that they shared with me validated what I already knew, but confirmed it.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:But when it comes to women and how they've shaped that understanding, so yes, what I believe leadership is is really centered around emotional intelligence. It's having self-awareness, it's being open and vulnerable, being able to admit your mistakes, putting in the hard work to do better and really focus on helping and improving other people's lives. In a nutshell, is what I believe leadership to be. How have women shaped that? I've had some amazing female leaders in my life, and male leaders too, so I've got to be honest. I can't necessarily say that the way that these mentors or significant people in my life shaped my understanding of leadership differed from male to female. I think their leadership styles in terms of what I've admired they were very similar because they did focus on supporting and putting people first. So I would say that I'll say this, though, when I look at some really toxic leaders, I don't even want to call them a leader because I don't think they're deserving of the title leader. To me, the title leader means, like you are emotionally intelligent. They lacked it. They were tyrannical, they were horrible.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:We're writing a book right On creating brave spaces, and the chapter I have is emotional intelligence, and I share a story in there about this one guy. He was so bad, katie, that the company decided to write an anti-bullying, harassment policy because of his behavior. And he was a plant manager, was in a distribution center for a retail company. Rather than fire him, they decided to write a policy to hopefully mitigate his terrible behavior, which it never changed. So when I look at some of the really bad leaders I had, none of them were women I'm fortunate but some of them were men. So what I learned not to do came from men, but not that I want to knock men's leadership styles. I know women who've had experiences with female leaders that were really horrible too, and we can obviously through the podcast season. We'll talk about that, but yeah, sorry, that's my little ramble of an answer you.
Katie Allan:That was good. I mean, I kind of put you on the spot while I was preparing to be put on the spot. But I'll share a few things that resonated as you were talking be put on the spot, but I'll share a few things that resonated as you were talking. Yeah, I've also had good and bad leadership examples and female leaders who've been really great and some who haven't. So, though, I would say, just basic, you know, leadership to me is it's about influence, it's about people follow you like and hopefully that's an inspiring way.
Katie Allan:So, kind of breaking down the basics, I think what I have appreciated in terms of the women in my life who I've admired their leadership style is that over the years, watching those what I would describe very powerful, kind of badass women embrace and really lead with a lot of and we'll get into this some of it today, even some of the more typically seen as female traits leadership traits like leading with empathy, being very collaborative, being very community and people-oriented.
Katie Allan:These are just good things for all leaders and we know that research tells us that. But typically some of those traits have been seen as more female-oriented and so, yeah, it's helped me embrace some of that which I think is more naturally the way I want to lead. But I can think, early on, when I was in more formal leadership roles, I felt I had to swing the other way and it was more unnatural and a little clunky and not me, so also not very authentic. So, all that to say, I think those are the examples that come to mind and I mean women do have unique experiences, examples that come to mind and I mean women do have unique experiences. And so I think seeing some of the inspiring female leaders who've sort of embraced all of that, who may or may not be mothers or embody different types of female roles, I just think it's very impressive to lean on that, to learn from that.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:So that's my rambly, I have all my rambly thoughts yeah, and with that you did touch upon some of the challenges that women may face, right and the barriers, especially when it comes to leading in a way that you know. We talk about authentic leadership, so leading in a way that feels right to you and fits well with you is sometimes a barrier, that, a challenge that we may experience, because there are barriers that don't encourage us or prevent us from doing that.
Katie Allan:So Well, that makes me think. Just lastly and then I'll move into those articles that I've brought for us but we spoke in the fall at the Alberta Women in Public Safety Conference and we were the last session of the day, the closing keynote, and the whole day was focused on wellness, women's wellness, and so there was a whole range of presenters and topics covered and we were kind of commenting as we were talking with the group around. You know they covered. There was like women's heart health and stuff around that. That was really important.
Katie Allan:There was also pelvic floor health and all sorts of things to consider and I think by the time we went on we were like wow, like we are, you know, really complex, just even in our physicality or the experience of women and what our bodies go through, and it was, if anything, something I think that really kind of fueled all of us there to be like it's really impressive. And so how do we also embrace and talk about these things as part of our experience and like lean into it? That was like a really remember we felt really kind of fired up at that point.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:I learned two critical things, like stop crossing your legs, it's terrible for your health.
Katie Allan:I'm doing that right now, I know.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:Every time I cross my legs, I'm like don't cross your legs, I know, I know. And that having a child is the equivalent to doing a tour de France, right, physically.
Katie Allan:Yep, yeah, you and I were doing a lot of like staring across the table like holy shit at each other during a lot of the things that were shared and like it was good, it was impactful. It was, yeah, absolutely Okay, Absolutely Okay, Great. Well, I wanted to add that piece. But let's move in. I've got two articles. I'm looking at time. I'm going to suggest really briefly, just maybe one quick thing to share and a question for you, Joanna, and then we'll move to the second one. But the first article Women's Leadership and Third Wave Feminism and I pulled this not to be this dry history lesson about feminism, but just to kind of remind myself and reorient us to some of those waves of feminism. And, like you said, it sometimes is seen as a bit of a bad word or you know yeah, what did you say earlier on Like a four-letter.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:Four-letter F word. How did F feminism come I don't know how you put it A four-letter F word?
Katie Allan:yeah, I mean like it's bad, it's just like a swear word.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:How did Feminism come? I don't know how you put it A four-letter F word. Yeah, I mean it's bad, it's just a swear word. You don't want to be a Feminism. Careful people may say you're a Feminist. You don't want to be a Feminism. You don't want to be a Feminist. I'm like why not? Why is being a Feminist a bad thing?
Katie Allan:So let's talk about the history of it. So let's talk about the history of it. So let's do that. I want to just again, I remember taking classes in this. I don't know if you did too, joanna, but like this could be hours of content. We will not be doing a deep dive into the history, so just, I guess, consider the major components of each wave. So I'll give a little recap and then, yeah, I've got a question or two for you. So some of this also.
Katie Allan:The article was a bit more in the American context, but I think it sort of situates us. Obviously we're in Canada, but yeah, all still relevant here. So first wave of feminists really looked at securing legal rights for women. So again, the article touched on things like the right to vote and had a bunch of stuff to say on that. So that's kind of like you know what we're talking about.
Katie Allan:Second wave this is more in the 1960s, focused on workplace equality, reproductive rights and challenging traditional gender roles. A lot of the article described was characterized by collective consciousness and a lot of women's groups aimed at disrupting patriarchal structures. So that was kind of in the 60s. That's the second wave. Third wave the article is talking about this starting in the 90s and brought more of an individualized approach to leadership, rejecting collective identity in favor of personal empowerment and diversity. This is where things like intersectionality so considering gender, but also other things like race or sexuality, class, other things so that's like a super high level catch up of those major waves of feminism and I think it brings up some interesting things for us to consider, even the work that we do in terms of the consulting, the leadership development with women, a lot of which work in male dominated fields, but any initial reactions to what I've shared. Joanna, these kind of three waves of feminism. Thank you for asking.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:Well, think about the first wave, when women got the right to vote in 1920. Some people, especially if you're a millennial, you may think that was a long time ago. But you know what? My mother-in-law was born in 19. She's passed now. She passed five, six years ago maybe longer Time goes by so fast. She was born in 1920. My grandmother, who's also passed on, was born before that. So when they were alive, my grandmother wouldn't be allowed to vote. My mother-in-law was born the year that women finally had the right to vote. It wasn't that long ago. You know, like people live into their nineties now. So if you think about it, that was not. It was a lifetime. It was just one lifetime ago that we didn't have the right to vote.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:So, yeah, I think we just need to pause and reflect on that and acknowledge that. Because when people are like you know, do women really experience challenges? Yes, because the beliefs around why we weren't allowed to vote or capable to vote, why we were technically the property of our husbands if we had a husband wasn't that long ago. So these ideologies are still very much entrenched in people's mindsets around the roles of women and what we can and what we're capable of doing or not doing. I still have conversations with people around. Well, women can't really do that, and I think it stems from that we're still fighting that a little bit Like, yes, we can, we can be these things, we can do these things. So I think that's one of the things that really stood out to me that we've come a long way, but don't forget the challenges that we experience that still kind of exist in the minds of people.
Katie Allan:Oh, that was really well said and I agree. I think that's really the piece I wanted to take away from that article and like the quick summary of those waves of feminism, one not that long ago. I mean, as you know, and I'm touching it right now my wedding ring was my grandmother's and so I'm kind of just was already kind of fidgeting with it as you were talking. I was like man when she was wearing this. That would have been during, you know, kind of this wave that's not that long ago and how that's so entrenched in a lot of the systems that are very much alive and well today. That takes a lot of time for those sorts of systemic changes and for people's acceptance of that even to become aware of I'm thinking of even of some of the change management stuff, like you know for a society to become aware of and on board with the idea of women occupying some of these spaces, even over the last few decades, not that long.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:Oh yeah, was it 1985? The Olympics finally created the marathon category for women, right, because apparently we were so weak that our uterus may fall out at that long distance. Meanwhile, we rock and kill at the ultra marathon distance and sometimes even beat our male counterparts in those races. Well, not we when I say we, not me, not me, but there are women out there, women who have. So yeah, 1985, once again not that long ago, right right.
Katie Allan:So I think that's probably a good, you know, reflection and sort of takeaway. And again, the hope with that was just that it gave us some context or situated us right now and I think we can probably build off that, even as I move into the next article. But how about, for time, joanna, I'd move into the next one. Does that sound okay?
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:Sure, I do have a funny story though, oh, please, yeah. That I think when I read about like the Women's Leadership in Third Way Feminism article title, made me think of a story that a friend told me when she was in women gender studies course. That a friend told me when she was in women gender studies course, dawson College in Montreal. So Dawson College obviously is an academic institution in Montreal. Maybe some of you are familiar with it.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:She was telling me she was in her women gender studies class and one of the women you know went on a break. She just she wanted to go to the bathroom. Right as she's going in the bathroom there's a man in a trench coat and you probably can sense where this is going is in one of the hallways because there's many entrances from the street that you can get into, obviously in Dawson through, and so she's walking towards the bathroom. This guy obviously used one of those entrances, came in and he flashed her. She got so pissed she ran back, she told all of the women only women were in the class what happened and there's this enraged group of women that run out chasing this guy.
Katie Allan:Oh my gosh, like the class, not just her, like the people, the class.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:So I always think about that. I'm like dude wrong time, wrong place.
Katie Allan:And the power of women coming together. I mean that's good. I had to share that story, that's good. That was perfectly timed. To share that story, that's good, okay, well, why don't I? I was trying to find a bit of a segue from that, but I'll just jump in the second article.
Katie Allan:So this was titled Women and Leadership History Theories and Case Studies. Again, it maybe sounds a little dry, but there were some good things I pulled out that really aligned with a lot of the research that has framed much of how we talk about transformational and transactional leadership, just different leadership styles again for all genders to consider, including in their leadership approach. So the article delves into research comparing women and men's leadership styles and they found that typically women are found to be generally more democratic, participative and transformational in their approach, often more communal and focused on the welfare of others, while men tend to be more focused on the individual achievement. They, the authors, discuss some of the obstacles that women face in leadership, including stereotypes, biases, structural barriers and organization. They talk about the glass ceiling metaphor, but replaced it with the leadership labyrinth, which I don't know if I'd actually heard that. There's a bunch of words and phrases framing this kind of thing, but I thought that was interesting. So the leadership labyrinth, they say, describes the complex and multifaceted challenges that women must navigate to achieve leadership positions. It also covers how women are more appointed to precarious leadership roles, a phenomenon known as the glass cliff.
Katie Allan:So again, there's a few terms and concepts that I hadn't really heard of, so I thought I'd pull those out and we can get into it in a sec. They talked about some of the additional burdens women face, such as domestic responsibilities, workplace challenges that are not always equally shared with men. Emphasize how organizational cultures and societal expectations can sometimes create hurdles for women in both achieving but also maintaining some of these higher level, especially leadership roles. So, yeah, the article explored the impact of increased gender diversity in leadership on organizations and society and just noted some of what we shared at the outset that diversity in teams and what women and female leaders bring are often associated with some positive outcomes, just by nature of leading in that sort of a way. So I think I'll pause there because there's so much we could unpack. I know I had flagged a couple questions, but maybe I'll just check for initial reactions to some of what I highlighted from that article, joanna.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:This is a great topic. We talk about a lot about this in our leadership course, the Women Up program, and women. When we say what's something you want to get out of it? And it's like I want to develop my leadership skills, I want to develop a strong leadership style and approach, and they want to learn more about the different kind of ways to lead and they want to learn more about the different kind of ways to lead. And we'll have these conversations like female traits versus male traits of leading and how it would be great if one day, we could get to a place where we could just focus on effective ways of leading, irrespective of gender, because the research is showing us more and more and I think we should define some of these, like what does transformational versus democratic or participative mean? But we're finding transformational leadership and what I'll say in a nutshell is leading through emotional intelligence is a more effective way to lead.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:We're not talking about management skills. Management skills are required to succeed when you're leading an organization, like achieving results, managing resources and budgets. You need those things Absolutely. But when it comes to inspiring and motivating people, you don't do that through a budget spreadsheet, right? It takes emotional intelligence, it takes connecting with people and forming bonds with them and working through conflict with them versus barking orders at them. So could we finally get to a place that says it's not male versus female, but this is just a better way to lead and if it does come more naturally to women, let's embrace it?
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:We had a conversation with a client not that long ago we're going to present at one of their employee resource groups and we're like can we dare? Can we dare say that we have strengths in the way that we lead and we need to embrace those? I'm like, yes, we can definitely say that. We talk about that a lot, and why not? And can here's like let's add on that and say can't we be the role models for our male counterparts versus them being role models for us? If this comes more naturally to us and we're more gifted at doing it, why don't we embrace it? Because I've seen women push back from that and want to lead in a way that doesn't necessarily speak to their strengths and doesn't seem authentic to them and can backfire. So those were some of the things that came to mind as you were doing a synopsis of it. The leadership labyrinth. I know we'll get into that, but that's an interesting concept I'd like to maybe explore a little bit. What about you, katie?
Katie Allan:Yeah, no, I really like what you said. I agree with a lot of it. Just going back to a few of the things I had jotted down here Well, yeah, because I'm thinking too sometimes when we share, and in Women Up we have added a section around the realities of women in the workplace in our orientation session, just to sort of again situate. We're not diving into the waves of feminism, but we're just talking about some of the research out there of what women do face and what they do experience. For example, there's some research that looked at the impact of maternity leaves on women's progression to formal leadership positions or the impact of their salary and how many years it takes to recover to the trajectory they were on, and things that I think are really interesting and important to put out there and reflect on. And maybe that's not the case for every individual or every organization, but to me it's good food for thought as a conversation, or at least to consider how some women may experience some of these things.
Katie Allan:I think most people get it, but we've definitely had some people who are understandably uncomfortable in that and I think all genders have expressed well, not necessarily to us, but I would imagine they would express some discomfort of maybe coming to terms with the reality or reconciling that as a woman maybe that's not my experience or for men to feel which we don't want ever, but you know, especially in this conversation or when we kick off that program to feel like we're bashing men. And so I wanted to take a moment to just, I guess, talk about that. It's really just to open up a conversation and to share some of the experiences of women. Like we said, that's kind of the hope for this whole season to highlight stories but to bring men and folks of all genders into the conversation, to share uncomfortable feelings or reactions. So just yeah, kind of wanted to tie that. I know we've talked about that piece before, but anything you want to add to what I just said.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:To build off what you said, I would say you know, when it comes to men feeling uncomfortable from these conversations, I will say this women have been feeling uncomfortable in the workplace for decades from the things that we've heard and the things that have been told to us, and we're supposed to just smile through it.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:So as soon as we start to stand up and say you can't say those things and this is the realities of what we experience, any man that says I feel like that's man bashing needs to do some self-reflection and ask himself why are you threatened by us pushing back and saying, no, you can't speak to me like that and guess what? These are real issues that we're experiencing. So I'm kind of yeah, it's interesting, and I think we need to talk about that a bit more and say you know, if you're feeling uncomfortable, there's a great quote that I read and it said I'm responsible for what I say. I'm not responsible for how you interpret it. That's good If we say it in a tone of compassion and patience and understanding and trying to make the case for women, so people understand the issues that we have, because you can't remove barriers if you don't know they exist. Right, and I think that's what we need to say in the next one.
Katie Allan:That's good, that's good.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:If we're sharing the barriers and you, as a man, are feeling defensive about that, then how do we work with you to remove the barriers If, the minute we talk about them, you get defensive about it? So I encourage you to self-reflect and maybe uncover and unpack some of the biases that may be causing you to feel defensive. Defensiveness is a really good self-awareness tool that we could use to our advantage and, rather than put our walls up, say, that's like a little indicator. For me, it's like the little indicator light that needs to check the engine when you get defensive and that indicator light goes on check your heart. That's the engine that you need to check and tap into that's good, oh, I like that.
Katie Allan:Yeah, we should definitely frame that. I think it's a good reminder for me hearing you say that too. Absolutely, we're sharing something. How people take that is not within my control. We're sharing this with a purpose and, yeah, like you said, we're writing a book. We're doing all this stuff on creating brave spaces.
Katie Allan:We know that we need to be a bit uncomfortable often in our own learning journey or as we're trying to improve ourselves or become more self-aware. So, if anything, even when we first heard that someone, there was one person who I think felt a little uncomfortable. It ended up leading to it sounds like a really great conversation, but initially there was some defenses that came up To me. That's good, like, if we have, you know, that feeling, that's an opportunity that can come from that. So I guess that's a different way to frame it. But, yeah, I like what you said. Okay, okay, well, why don't I?
Katie Allan:I think the last thing I want to have a little chat about, and then we'll wrap up the leadership labyrinth, and I know there's some other terms. The broken rung is one that we've recently been talking about. The glass cliff was mentioned in this article. But, yeah, the leadership labyrinth, just to remind us from the article. They talked about the complex challenges women face in attaining leadership roles, and then that glass cliff being the precarious leadership roles. How women are often appointed to precarious leadership roles the glass cliff.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:Jerry, my husband read an article that said not all female CEOs get appointed to or, sorry, get hired to run organizations that are really struggling. They say it's not the glass cliff. Isn't always true, isn't always the case. There's a lot of female CEOs that have successfully navigated an organization away from the rocks. Right, they steered the ship away from the rocks and back into the ocean, back on course, and they did that quite well, okay and fair enough.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:I think that article is probably looking at a segment of women who were successful at that, but I know of many other positions and organizations where a position was created to check a box of some kind, to demonstrate their openness to a more diverse and inclusive workforce, but there was no actual structural supports that were put into place to really help this person succeed. And so, like the uh, starting with the end in mind, we're hiring you to help us achieve the following organizational outcomes. These are the expectations we have to work with you in terms of you know, and these are the supports that we'll give you to meet these expectations. We're going to share with the whole organization what you do by giving you, by basically stating that you have permission to do this, and people are encouraged and supported to work with you and we'll remove barriers to make sure people can work with you.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:Like, if those things aren't in place, yeah, they've basically created structural barriers to like. Yeah, I like the labyrinth. They've put them into a labyrinth where there's really no clear understanding of where the twists and turns rooms are. You know how to successfully navigate through the labyrinth to get to, like, the proper destination, like they're really left on their own and then, when they fail, oh, you see, oh, wow, we, you know, we, we Lord our standards or they say these things, but like, you kind of set up the person to fail. So that's what I'm getting at. Like, that's my understanding of what this broken rung is, what the glass cliff is and I guess now the labyrinth.
Katie Allan:No, that was really good and I'll share. I mean, when I first read about that, I liked the kind of metaphor, the idea of it, the way you just described it in terms of the leadership labyrinth, but I also thought this isn't just a woman thing. I can think of other people and other experiences, and I'm thinking to the research, some of the research I helped out during my graduate studies, research, some of the research I helped out during my graduate studies. But interviewing, I interviewed lots of academics about their experience being new to the academy and their experience with mentorship, and I can think of many individuals, not just women, but there were many men who, for example, were, you know, newcomers to Canada, moved here, were thrown into this system higher education, into the academy without a lot of support, kind of navigating this maze of also being new to Canada, having their first winter, like English not being their first language, trying to transfer some of their credit, like there was a lot of challenges.
Katie Allan:So I can think of specific people that I've interacted with more kind of informally, but also through some of my research, where I imagine they would relate to that concept as well. So, yes, it may help understand the experience of women, but to me it also brought up the fact that also we can relate on that right, like other people going through a labyrinth, even if they're not women. To me there's a framing of that that's actually one of empathy, one of connection and understanding, of like right. I've been stuck in my maze. It might be different than yours, but being stuck in a maze is still frustrating or challenging and may feel unfair, but there may be others experiencing a version of that. So I kind of took that away. But also I agreed with so much of what you said just before I shared.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:I think it is important to state that it's not just women, like you said. There are some guys that they don't fit the archetype of what a leader needs to be or look like in the workplace, or what a guy needs to look like or be like or sound like in the workplace. Yeah, they will get excluded. They will feel limited in terms of what they can actually achieve in that organization. Although they may look like the archetype, they don't necessarily behave like the archetype.
Katie Allan:Yeah, interesting. Okay, well, there's so much more I feel we could unpack with that article, but I do feel excited that the season ahead, as a bit of a teaser, is definitely going to dive into and expand on a lot of this. So I hope this gave a nice framing of what we're going to be getting into. But with that I'll turn it to you to take us home.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:Thank you. Okay, our final reflection question. We also can we call it a call to action. So here it is. Think about the leadership qualities and barriers we've discussed today. How can you, in your own life and workplace, support and promote inclusive leadership? For example, are there actions you can take to help break down barriers for women leaders, to create a more equitable environment for everyone? All right, so as we conclude our first episode of season five, just a quick little recap.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:We explored the rich history and evolution of female leadership, from the early days of feminism to the diverse and dynamic leadership styles that we see today and are required for organizations to succeed. The stories and research we discuss highlight not only the progress that's been made, but still the challenges that remain. So thank you so much for joining us on this journey. We encourage you to reflect on our questions that we shared with you. Please share your thoughts on social media. We're going to be publishing one episode per month, so this one, this episode should be coming out at the end of February, so stay tuned for more episodes to follow. Also, please check out Women Up Ignite the Leader in you.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:It is a virtual program so you can join us anywhere really in the world or across Canada, and it is for new emerging leaders or women who are in middle management positions and are looking for some more support, looking to connect and become part of a community with other women who are experiencing the same challenges. And so if you are a woman who've especially if maybe you started a new position and you're like I'm too busy, I'll tell you this chances are you're maybe feeling isolated in your role. It would be great right to have a community of women that you could go to, where you may be feeling isolated in your role. It would be great right to have a community of women that you could go to, where you could get inspired. Like, once a week you meet with these women, you get inspired and you're ready to go back into the workplace to tackle those challenges.
Dr. Johanna Pagonis:This is some of the feedback that we've gotten from women. So if you're interested, please check out the course, reach out to us. We'd love to share more about it and talk to you. That is it. Thank you so much, everyone. We'll see you next time on Tackle Tuesday. Thank you.
