Tackle Tuesday
Tackle Tuesday is a podcast series that tackles different issues in the workplace. Grab a coffee and join me on Tuesdays where we will explore topics such as, leading with emotion, diversity and inclusion, and how to create resilient and agile work cultures. Together we will explore issues people within organizations are tackling today and strategies that will support them in creating workplaces that are filled with possibility.
Tackle Tuesday
Women Thriving in Leadership | Season 5 | Ep. 2
SUMMARY
This live podcast was recorded at a book launch event of two remarkable authors, Dr. Johanna Pagonis and Dr. Kathy Toogood, as they share their journeys and wisdom gained from years of leadership experience and doctoral research.
Whether you're an established leader, aspiring to leadership, or simply interested in creating more equitable workplaces, this episode offers valuable insights on leading with authenticity, purpose, and sustainable practices that benefit both individuals and organizations. Listen now to discover how small groups of committed individuals can truly change the world.
HIGHLIGHTS
• Self-awareness forms the foundation of emotional intelligence and effective leadership
• Authenticity comes from knowing your purpose and values, which serve as anchors during challenges
• Setting boundaries and saying "no" enables more meaningful "yeses" in leadership
• Leadership isn't a constant sprint but rather a marathon with periods of intensity and recovery
Join us in revolutionizing workplaces, creating climates of possibility where we can support leaders in developing the skills to maximize human potential in the workforce.
Woman Up! Ignite the Leader in You Cohort 7
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Best practices and pitfalls of change management process
Good evening, everyone, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. This is a, I think, bigger audience than we were expecting. This was a problem of fitting chairs in a problem we hope to have, so this is really lovely. So thanks for spending your Wednesday with us. I'm excited to welcome you folks here. In Audrey's Books and we also have, with all of our tech set up, we've got folks joining virtually and we're also recording this. We're going to be releasing it as a podcast episode. Joanne and I have a podcast tackle Tuesday, and so this will be part of our upcoming season. So again, welcome to everyone. Our theme for the upcoming season is women in leadership, women at work, so we thought this discussion would be a really, really good fit. So that's why we've got the mics and the tech and and all the things. So we'll, yeah.
Speaker 2:You're not on camera, it's just us.
Speaker 3:We're the ones on camera, that's right. How many folks do we have online?
Speaker 2:Nine, we're also Zooming so welcome. Is there 60 here?
Speaker 1:That's really exciting, that's wonderful. So my name is Katie Allen. I'll be facilitating our discussion with both of our authors this evening our discussion with both of our authors this evening. I work with Joanna. I'm the Chief Operating Officer with SynoGap Solutions so Joanna can go a little bit more into kind of the background of her work and how that lends its way to the company. But yeah, I'll be facilitating this discussion.
Speaker 1:I had the pleasure of reading both books and got a lot out of it and even thinking back to our discussion last week to prep for the event, we had a really wonderful discussion. We didn't necessarily follow the questions I prepared, which is fine. We had a really great kind of organic conversation. So I'm kind of excited to see where things go this evening. So basically we've got about 45 minutes where I will throw some questions both at Joanna and Kathy. We'll have some time at the end for you folks to ask them any questions that you have and then we'll be able to kick around after and mingle and chit chat for our last hour. So I think with that I thought rather than me reading a bio. They're both very impressive women who have done a lot of things. I thought my first question would be just having them reflect on their leadership journey and really what led them to write these books. So I think we'll start there and I'll hand this to you?
Speaker 3:Yeah sure, so I think we'll start there and I'll hand this to you. Yeah sure, you have your mic. I have my mic. I'm going to sit. I just wanted to see everyone, okay, well, welcome.
Speaker 2:It's so wonderful to be here with all of you tonight. So, as many of you know, I'm an educator, so I began my life as a teacher. I didn't expect to go into leadership necessarily, but as I went along in my career, I just wanted to make a difference and step up. But I had some limiting beliefs that I had to unpack and dismantle before I could step into further responsibility. And so I learned a lot from different people, and then, when I was first appointed a principal, I thought what did I ever do to prepare me for this? And so in many ways, this book is writing, a book that I wish I'd had as a young leader.
Speaker 2:But the other thing I see is that, as women, our lives change through various iterations pre-kids with kids, grandkids, aging parents working, refirement or retirement and so it's so important for us to keep reflecting and thinking about who we are, what we want to offer the world and how we can keep making a difference in sustainable ways. So this was born in some of my doctoral work, and they said you should write a book, and I was like how, when? And so it was really in moving to Nova Scotia a couple of years ago that I found the space and time to do the deep thinking and start writing. So, yeah, this feels like a dream come true to be here at Audie's with all of you and then to share the message and help others think. How can we step into our best life and our greatest contribution to the community?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so, just like Kathy and myself as well, my book is based on my doctoral work. The reason why I wanted to write the book well goes back to the reason why I wanted to do my PhD, and so I took a 10-year hiatus from my master's to my PhD. I was already working as a manager with the government of Alberta, and we'll get to how we met in a moment, but that's where we met, and as I was moving upwards in my career, I found that it was just because you're really good at your job as an informal leader, or what we call an individual contributor, doesn't mean that when you get promoted to a formal leadership position, that the skills that you have naturally transfer seamlessly to a leadership role. And what I discovered was we don't do a good job. It doesn't matter what industry you're in, whether it's public sector, public, private, nonprofit there's similarities in regards to we promote people that are really good at what they did in terms of why we hired them, and then we just hope and pray that they figure it out when they become a leader and the role of the job fundamentally changes In many ways. It's you have to be a psychologist, a therapist, a social worker and also be a really good manager when it comes to systems thinking, strategic planning, budgeting, and I thought we were doing a disservice to our people and we were both public servants, and when we fail as managers, our people fail, and when they fail the community that we serve, doesn't they fail too right? We don't get to, they don't get the services that they need.
Speaker 4:So I decided to go back and do a thesis on well, how do we better support managerial learning and development? Welcome, come on in. We have to find a room to like put more chairs down for everyone, and so I thought we have to. I wanted to look at how not just to support people through formal training, which is my backgrounds in learning and development, but how do we leverage the workplace environment as a way to support everyday learning, which is really what my thesis was on, and so when I completed it, I always had a passion to write the book. I wanted to actually resign from government, start my own business, and I thought this is one way that could really situate me as a thought leader and an expert. It's a great business card, it's a good way to promote yourself, and I know managers are really busy, so I wanted to make it quite short and sweet and, as my husband says, it's a good bathroom read. So, yeah, a couple of bathroom breaks. You should get right through it.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's my story. No, thank you both for that. And the next question you sort of touched on a bit, but I guess I'll go back to Joanna just to elaborate a bit more on how you know each other. Maybe a bit more on that story. Okay, do you want to?
Speaker 4:start with this one.
Speaker 4:You can start first with Justice and Solicitor General. For many years After I completed my thesis, I wanted to move up and I hit the ceiling. I guess where I was it was really unless my boss. The joke is, my boss either quit or died. I wasn't moving up. There was no vacancy, so I needed to move.
Speaker 4:I needed to go somewhere, and so she supported me to go to education. There was a spot open for a senior manager position and an old colleague of mine was actually there, sean Carter. So I was really excited to go there, and my old boss, curtis Clark, who was now the deputy minister, was there, and my mentor, who also encouraged me to do my master's and wrote a recommendation letter for me, and I think he was critical and gave me the confidence I needed to even think I was, you know, smart enough to do a PhD honestly, and so I was like this is I would love to go there. And so Kathy was working really closely with Sean in strategic engagement, which it was a really, really cool unit. I mean their, their job was to figure out how to not only engage the stakeholders of of our education but internally as well, and you're doing some cutting edge, innovative things in terms of engagement and how to use tech videos, podcasts I was just like I wanted to be there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we're all together right it's good to see you, and so we were working on a mentoring project, so it was a mentoring program that they were trying to launch. I wanted to join. You were part of that.
Speaker 2:Well, and we were connected to.
Speaker 4:Oh, you have a mic already.
Speaker 2:Oh yes To LinkedIn. And I saw that Joanna was putting her writing out there and I thought I want to write a book, and so I reached out to her and I said could we be in a peer mentoring group Could?
Speaker 2:we have a writing group so we can support each other in that journey, and so that was really how it started, and another colleague of us, of ours, joined us in that as well. So it this, this path of supporting other women and empowering each other and saying you know, there's lots of good work for all of us. How do we lift each other up?
Speaker 4:uh, to be our best right, it was so that was a an amazing opportunity and that was like 2019, just shy of 2020, and then you can think about like three, like four years later. We wrote our book. So good on you, yeah, good on me.
Speaker 1:Well okay, well that kind of lends nicely to the next question. So collaboration and community are themes that both of your books touch on. So I've got here, kathy, maybe you can talk a bit about how this collaborative book launch came to me, because this is kind of a unique opportunity for both of you to reconnect and and talk about your books.
Speaker 2:So yeah, well, it had always been a dream of mine to once I wrote a book, to have an event at Audrey's. I lived downtown and I would walk by here and see what was happening. And so when I spoke to Levi at Audrey's and they were so supportive because we like to have two authors and and I thought that's perfect, and I thought of Joanna immediately and since we had sort of similar themes and because her book came out in during the pandemic, she didn't have an opportunity, opportunity to do this kind of work. And I love the thought of a conversation. Right, I've done different book events in Nova Scotia and around and I don't want it to be just me. Wah, wah, wah.
Speaker 2:It's about the conversation, it's about what's been true for me. What are you finding that helps you to thrive and support? And it truly, as a young leader, I thought I had to have all the answers and have it figured out and appear like I had it all together and truly, as I've come through the years, it's working together in community. It's saying this is what I love and can offer. But I really appreciate what you've done here with the technology. So I just knew that would elevate the conversation and the events. So it's it's. It's a delight and an honor to yeah be in conversation tonight.
Speaker 4:I was really, really pleased, really thankful and grateful that you asked me and as soon as you said cause we flew in from Toronto. We were at we're in TO yesterday for for work for a workshop that we were delivering and I thought you can't say no to an opportunity like this we're flying in the morning.
Speaker 4:Yes, it's definitely a yes and then and then other people are like what if the flight doesn't make it? So we had a whole plan, yeah, but of course I had to complicate everything and bring in a virtual room. But yeah, because I mean you have folks that live obviously like friends and that live in nova scotia my, I'm originally from montreal, so I thought so. I thought this would be great to have as many people as we can attend.
Speaker 2:Here's the thing about thriving. This is not having a perfect life and everything going your way. As you may have noticed my ultra-fashionable footwear here and my little trip in the spring that was actually a break. The universe conspired to make this happen. Tonight you got back from Toronto. I got on that plane from Nova Scotia, so here we are. So it's really thinking about what am I in control of and how do I focus my energies there to do the things that matter, not just for me, but for the community and for each other.
Speaker 1:Well, with that, I kind of want to dive into some of the themes of the book. When we again met last week there were a few that we pulled out that some consistent themes. So the first one was around self-awareness and learning, which both of you touched on quite a bit in terms of your own experience and reflections. Lots of vulnerability in there that I appreciated kind of being able to read and connect with Some great reflection questions. But I'll start with a question for you, joanna, and then Kathy, you can kind of add your bit. So, joanna, the book emphasizes the importance of learning in leadership and self-awareness. So how do you believe self-awareness contributes to effective leadership? And I believe there's an excerpt that you might want to start with.
Speaker 4:I'll let you decide, right? Yeah, let me start with the excerpt. That's a good idea. I was going to chat about it a bit first, but let me start with that and then it'll lead me into what I discovered. So my research I interviewed managers, supervisors and directors, and when I interviewed them I just wanted to know, like, how do you do what you do, how did you learn to do what you do? And through that some things came out that I wasn't expecting necessarily, and one of those things was emotional intelligence. And so let me read the excerpt and then I'll get into it a little bit more.
Speaker 4:So this one specifically obviously about specific to self-awareness. So managers express the importance of being aware of their strengths and limitations so they can continually develop and grow. So here's one quote when I get to the situation where I run out of things, of knowledge, I have to reboot or reeducate myself to new things. My competencies haven't changed a lot, but I have to focus on improving them. Curtis also reiterated that importance of accurate self-assessment. You have to be willing to accept that you don't know everything. Rely on the people that know more than you. You have to be open, willing to change and accept change. Know the things you can't control, like political influence and budgets, and you have to be positive. I think that is a conscious decision. Every day, you have to be what you want everyone else to be, and I think this is poignant and really true, whether you want to be that on that day or not. Right, yeah?
Speaker 4:And so when I was doing my candidacy exam which is when, before you get approval to go and do your research, you have to sit in front of a panel of professors and they drill you, they grill you and they basically then give you permission to go ahead and conduct your research and one of the professors there, who I really admire and have a lot of respect for, she said sounds like you're conflating and I know we're gonna get into leadership and management you're conflating leadership and management. I think they're very different. And I was like, okay, she's like I encourage you to research that. I'm like sure I will.
Speaker 4:But she was really right and I was conflating them because I thought if you're a good manager, you have to be a good leader to me. What's the difference? But they are very different competencies. And that's what came out. And when I started to analyze the data and my research. Uh, and I was looking at all of the quotes and the themes that I had written on flip charts around my wall was like and I think I write this in the book too it was like a hand came out of the flip chart and slapped me across the face and said they're talking about emotional intelligence.
Speaker 4:That's what they're talking about, and self-awareness is the first domain of emotional intelligence.
Speaker 4:And in our workshop yesterday we said, out of the four domains and some of the other domains really focus on self-management, regulation, developing really positive relationships with other people, conflict management I said which one do you think is the most important? And they said self-awareness. Because if you're lacking self-awareness, how do you grow? And here's the thing with self-awareness that I discovered was if you really want to develop it.
Speaker 4:It's not always a pleasant journey. It can be quite painful and uncomfortable, especially when you come face to face to an unconscious bias you have and they start to feel a certain kind of way. When someone says something, you get defensive and people who are really working on becoming more self-aware question the defensiveness and take a step back and don't attack, but pause and think and reflect, which is very hard. I mean, how many of us have lost our cool sometimes, right, and we learn through that. And that's what self-awareness is. It doesn't mean we're perfect, it's not about perfection, it's about practice and intentional effort. And so I appreciated what they said and to me that was the foundation to everything, if you can work on that, the competency in the other domains will come, and if you're not self-aware, then you kind of hit a wall there. When it comes to learning, they're they're very intricately linked, and that was the other thing I learned. The more emotionally intelligent you are, the more better you're a better learner. Yeah, and it starts with self-awareness maybe I'll jump in just because I'm curious.
Speaker 1:Kathy, you integrated so many really great reflection questions throughout the book, I think in a an effort to help people become more self-aware, so I want to to give you a chance to add to some of that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And the thing is you hear that all the time oh, you need to be more self-aware, you need to take care of yourself, but what does that really mean? And so few people tell you. What does that actually look like? And so, as I was a new leader and trying to figure things out, I had developed some journaling strategies that really helped me, and one was, as a new principal, weekly I would reflect on what did I like about this week, what did I do well, what didn't I like, what would I do differently. So it doesn't have to be daily you think, oh, I can't fit that in, but just weekly. And that helped me be more attuned to what am I liking? What do I want to move more towards that? And if I'm not liking it, is there an option? I delegate that, or do I need to learn something? But it helps us move in that direction of of of our thriving, to know what we're liking.
Speaker 2:And when you have a great day, what made it a great day? How can you get more of that in your life? If it's a bad day, what made it a bad day? Do you need to eat breakfast? Did you need to take that five minutes to just breathe and and think before you had that meeting, and so it looks different for each of us, but that taking time to reflect regularly is absolutely critical to knowing where are my learning edges. You know what was the trigger there. How do I do better the next time, who I am and what I'm in control of?
Speaker 4:Learning edges. I never heard that term before.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure if I have either. I think I just need it out. Okay, I was like I like it.
Speaker 4:I don't know the difference. Okay, yeah, no, I like it. I'm going to explore that a little bit more. Yeah, we're learning architect, but learning edges is interesting. Yeah, kind of like you move, your book is published and now you need to promote it.
Speaker 2:There's a learning edge of the things that you haven't done before. Right, so we're, if we want to grow, and I think of it I don't like the term self-help so much as self-development. It's not to be somebody who's better or different, but to step more fully into who you are and what you want to offer the world.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I appreciate that. And yeah again, you talk lots about building almost a bit of a habit or the muscle of these sorts of things regularly, and that becomes a bit preventative as well in terms of then taking care of yourself. So that's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was practices. So that was when I had been writing different chapters and playing with the ideas in the early stages. But I thought it's practices, it's what we repeatedly do that shapes who we are and how we show up, and we're all practicing something. What is it you repeatedly spend time doing and what's the fruit of that in your life? And is that the fruit you want? Or if you want to be more peaceful or more healthy or more attentive in relationships, how are you practicing that? What are you repeatedly doing to bear that good fruit in your, in your life and relationships and work?
Speaker 1:I like that before I take us in a slightly different direction. Uh, joanna, was there anything more management versus leadership? There may have been an excerpt. Did you want to spend a bit more time on that?
Speaker 4:yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, moved on, I'll read that one too. One second, okay. So this comes from the chapter called checking my our biases at the door, and it was all around like our misconceptions or understanding of what we think leadership actually is. So this is where I write. I used to believe that being a manager and leader were one and the same. It was only when I conducted my own research that my belief system was challenged.
Speaker 4:The research participants in my PhD study discussed how they faced multiple dilemmas. They talked about the importance of considering the larger system they worked within while at the same time, considering their employees' needs. And I call it the balancing act of a manager right, being there for your staff, but also knowing that you do represent the organization in many ways and you have to ensure that the goals that are critically important to the organization that they basically put out there, that you're working diligently towards, but you're also empowering your staff to be able to achieve those goals too. It's a balance sometimes. One of the research participants compared the concept of leadership and management to static and dynamic processes. So he said that management is the static side of the business. It's about ticking your boxes, the budget, allocating resources. The dynamic part is the leadership part.
Speaker 4:You can't just be one or the other. You have to be out there and visible and working with your team. That is how you get buy-in. I can sit here in this office all day long and not see anybody and I would never know their names and they would never approach me to bribe me with feedback. That's another way we develop.
Speaker 4:Self-awareness is when people give you feedback. You have to do a lot of heavy lifting in some ways to develop the relationship for people to feel safe enough to give you that feedback. So how can I make informed decisions if all I do is sit in my office? So I thought that was powerful, because a lot of the stuff that we hear with the leaders that we're trying to develop is I'm so busy I don't have time to go outside of my office.
Speaker 4:One person made a joke and said so I guess all we're going to do is just chit chat, have a good time all day and not get any work done. And I'm like if you actually develop the relationships with your staff in many ways you're going to you'll get to know what their strengths, their weaknesses, what they need, what drives and motivates them, and they will make your job easier. And the managers are always saying that I don't have time, I don't have time, we're micromanaging. They were too much into the weeds. They were putting fires out. They didn't know how to empower their staff to do a lot of the things that they shouldn't have been doing, so I felt like that was a huge challenge, so it was really nice to see someone acknowledge that that's really what it takes to be a leader, right?
Speaker 1:I mean before we move away. So that was kind of the self-awareness and learning theme, kathy, is there anything else you want to add to that? Okay, so authenticity and purpose is something else that both your books spend some time talking about. So, kathy, you looked at the importance of cultivating wholeness in leadership, so I'd love for you to share an excerpt to talk about what wholeness means to you and how leaders can cultivate it within themselves.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Words are so important, so playing with those words of wholeness or authenticity, or what does that mean? So here's a little piece. Although many of the featured stories are about educators, this is not a book about how to become a principal. Rather, it's an exploration of how many different women have found ways to care for themselves, for other people and for ideas in a holistic manner. It's not a book about how to be a leader in a man's world, but how to value your unique human gifts on a path to authentic leadership. It grows out of my belief that we need every person contributing their gifts for the well-being of all, and that thriving is mutual.
Speaker 2:This is not a book about sacrifice, sacrificing yourself, your family or your career. It's not a book about striving to be someone different, but about dwelling in the fullness of who you are. To be someone different, but about dwelling in the fullness of who you are. This is a book about wholeness, about weaving the many aspects of your life into an offering of strength and possibility. It's not a book about being the boss, but about empowering others to be their best. I embrace the feminine ethic of care as a strength, not a weakness. It's not a book about being the supreme leader who knows and does it all, but rather about cultivating shared leadership within community, where we all offer strengths, as we depend on each other to contribute their gifts.
Speaker 2:And so it, yeah, so that concept of wholeness has been a key concept and and the cultivating it comes from practice and who I am shifts, you know, as we, as we retire or shift to another job or another position offer. In this setting, what does this call of me? What do I want to do? So that was a big thing instead of what do I have to do or should do. And we there's lots of those things in our life that we build our time and energy around, but what do I want to do? And starting to listen to that voice inside of what's calling to us, and then finding that really cool things happen when you do more of what you want to You're, you're offering what only you can give and it fills you up instead of draining you in the offering of it.
Speaker 1:Oh, there's so much in there that I'm sure, joanna, you might want to speak to. Purpose stands out. I think you talk quite a bit, joanna, about finding your purpose and having that kind of help to guide you, even though, like you said, you might evolve as a person and change. So I don't know if you want to start there or if you have another Sure, yeah.
Speaker 4:I mean the whole thing with authenticity, and we talk a lot about being authentic and developing self-awareness is like what's your purpose in life, right? What gets you up out of the day, that intrinsic source of motivation that keeps you going during the really, really tough times. And if we don't have a sense of purpose, then nothing is anchoring us. And so really during difficult times like imagine I like to use those nautical metaphors- right.
Speaker 4:When times are tough, or if there's a rock, like the sea is rocky and there's lots of waves, sometimes you need to put the anchor down. Sometimes you just need to pause, regroup, you know, before you move forward. So that purpose is that anchor, and knowing that purpose makes you more authentic, and knowing your values as well. So we get a lot, we talk a lot, about being an authentic leader and sometimes we get flack for that word. Authenticity was the Webster's word. Did you know this for 2023? Okay, yes, it's a good one.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think it's a good word, but I think a lot of people were like you know, don't bring your whole self to work. Nobody wants to see your whole self at work, and there was all of these things around. What does it mean to really be authentic? And I think it's just knowing your purpose, your values, and staying true to that and using that to guide you when it comes to your decision making and also making sure, like you said, I think that's what makes you whole as a human being being, and so I like the word and I think it gets you know. It's a misunderstood sometimes now when talking about wholeness.
Speaker 2:Sorry, you're going to say something no, and I and you know a challenge for lots of people is they don't feel safe to bring their whole self to work right. You, you're in a circumstance where you do share a little bit of of your maybe your struggle or vulnerability or your interests or other past times, and it's not. You hear you get a response that doesn't make you feel safe, and so it's. It can be tricky, and I recognize that and I've that's happened to me at different times as well, and so you, you keep noticing is this for good and is this a place where I can be my whole, authentic self? Or who are the people around me who bring that out and who let me be that way? And then, once you've experienced that, you want to create those conditions for other people.
Speaker 2:So I really appreciate about your book, joanna, how you are really focusing on how a work environment can promote learning and develop and really help people do that. And I would say that my book is really a lot about the personal work of leadership. What am I in control of? What's the personal work that I can do to show up the way that I want to and offer what I want? You know, knowing that there's, you know all of that other stuff happening perhaps in your work environment. So it's, yeah, it can be tough sometimes, but yeah, I'm glad that you said that, because so your book focused on women leadership.
Speaker 4:My book was just on leadership. There was it's almost interesting because my participants. There was a limitation to my study because it was done in a law enforcement setting. The majority of my participants were men. I had two women. Honestly, I didn't have a lot of women, so that was a significant limitation. So when they talked about it would have been interesting to hear, because what you said was a really important point, like a woman's perspective on what it's like to be authentic in a male-dominated industry.
Speaker 4:And we have a program for women in leadership. It's called Women Up and we talk a lot about that and what we're discovering is if you're from an underrepresented group, especially in the workforce, it is a lot harder for you to actually be truly authentic because you're judged for it. Because if you're different and I think we're making ways towards understanding that there's different ways to lead, there's different ways to be, there's different expertise, there's different dimensions of identity they should all be welcome and with that come different experiences and ways of being annoying. But we still have a ways to go and we usually invite a woman to come to speak at the orientation session of the first workshop and we had a wonderful woman. She was a director of she worked for the RCMP the forensic lab services and she was the director of operations there and she's biracial. And she said that her, her identity was really tied to how she led and she wanted to do a research study for a master's to better understand other women's leadership, being an executive leadership in a male-dominated industry.
Speaker 4:And there was this one woman who shared her story and she said when I decided to just even wear my hair curly not wear it straight anymore it was a risk for me, but she wore curly, she went to work and what happened was pretty magnificent. Other women came to her and said that they wanted to start doing the same. So when we choose not to be fully authentic, not to be fully authentic like what? What are we preventing from really manifesting in our workplaces? It's, it's. It takes courage. I think it takes a lot of bravery and it's not easy, Cause I'm there's, I'm sure, a lot of stories in this room of women who have stood up and wanted to be truly authentic and got reprimanded for it. Right, but, Sonia's, when you said that it made me think of that.
Speaker 2:I, just out of curiosity, did how did the women talk about that, or challenges around that? Well, and the women in my study were largely in education, not-for-profit and government were the areas of their experience, and so which, which may be more female dominated industry? So I think there's different challenges in the different industries. So I think when you're in those, there's this expectation of care above and beyond your work. Oh, of course you're going to feed everybody, or organize that party, or, you know, do those things, and so that can be a challenge. Large proportion of men at the top of those, at the highest superintendents and so on, the the women might be 60 or 70 percent of the front line and and men are 60 or 70 percent of the top leadership position. So so it's still, you know, it still doesn't mean if you're in a female dominated area, that flowing up to leadership comes. That comes naturally, and so and there's a double bind that women often face say you're expected to be caring, which is a good thing, but if, um, but then you're diminished for it, oh, you're too soft and caring, right. So do they want that? Is that a strength or not?
Speaker 2:And also thinking about, because I the second section on careful leadership. How do you create a culture of care so that you're not the one doing all the caring or the only one doing the caring that that wears you out as you're trying to do the work? How do you set things up so people can care for each other? And, um, and you're, and you're nurturing that, that piece. So I mean, that is an ongoing piece and I think, um, the other thing, as we relate to this, there's, there's certain things that only you can do.
Speaker 2:It's only you who can figure out what your purpose is, what your values are, what you want to offer the world. And then there's the quality of our workplace, and so you can have a fabulous workplace, but if you don't know yourself and what you want to offer, you can't truly thrive. You can know yourself and you might not be in. You can't truly thrive. You can know yourself and you might not be in a healthy workplace that nurtures well-being. And so both of those things have to come together, and my hope is that when you are thriving, when you found a way to live your life according to your values and to do work in a meaningful, sustainable way, that you can create that environment for other people. You need some flexibility. How can you offer that for other people? How can you sell each other off and have a place that allows everybody to find their path of authenticity, as well as belonging and community?
Speaker 4:I was going to say we call it a success circle. I got the concept from Forbes I think it was Forbes right An article the nine types of people. We call it a success circle. I thought I got the concept from forbes I think it was forbes right an article the nine types of people to have in your success circle.
Speaker 4:Because some of the women we work with have a not a big fan of the term networking and having a network. But the minute you know we start using terms like success circle, they feel like it's more nurturing, it's more two-way, it's reciprocated, it's reciprocal. Knowing so, people in your success circle support you but you support them as well. I mean and I always say, like I don't know bernie brown, she tells a story about her daughter at school the marble jar friends. I don't know if you know the story, like you know people who take marbles continually out of your jar. The marbles represent your energy, I think, if I'm saying it right. And are there people who are just taking the marbles out, taking the marblesbles on and deplete you, because at times they need to be giving you marbles back, right? So knowing how to support others, but that there are support units, reciprocals, absolutely important.
Speaker 1:I'll keep going, I'll ask a few more questions, but there's so many things I want to ask. So I think, before I move us over to self-care community and self-care, maybe to sort of wrap up a few questions just on some of these topics. On authenticity and the experience of both your participants, when we met last week we also reflected on you know, there's been a lot of books out there for a long time on leadership, written by men and, and all genders can read these books.
Speaker 1:Women have been reading them, but I kind of want you both to speak to maybe the experience or the impact you hope, the book written by a woman and some of the experiences you share, even personally, kind of the why behind that or thoughts on that.
Speaker 4:I'd like to turn to Kathy, just because you said something we met last week and you said there's been so many books for the longest time written by men on leadership for men, right, and so we need a book written by a woman for women that men can read, about women, about women that men can read and they can get a lot out of that too, right?
Speaker 7:So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I mean I've always been careful in sharing my research. I'm not saying that women are better leaders than men. I've been blessed or benefited from many strong male leaders that I've learned a lot from and who exhibit care, so I'm not creating that dynamic there. But I believe women experience leadership differently. We have different societal norms. It's the water we swim in different expectations that people have for us, and so I wanted to give life to the lived experiences of women. So my original doctoral research was a narrative inquiry which goes deep in the lived experience of people, and so to be able to say this is what it feels like to be a woman in leadership who's also mothering, who's juggling and holding all of these things. So so I hope it's a an insight into the thinking that goes behind, because it's very easy to feel like we have to have a mask oh, it's great, I've got it all together Going to the Pennsylvania, how are things Fine, fine, how are things with you, fine, fine. But to to give people a chance to say, I remember after speaking to women feeling like I'm not alone, right, we, we are holding it together, we're doing great work.
Speaker 2:But those fabulous women also have limiting beliefs. They're they're juggling many things. They're wondering am I doing it good enough? And they probably are. They're rocking it, but our voice, our inner critic, may diminish our ability to say that. So there's power in sharing our stories, there's power in sharing our vulnerability and, like you said, when we kind of gain the courage to do that, then other people, we create space for other people to do that and together we can either dismantle those limiting beliefs you are awesome, you know, I think of the one small thing that didn't go right and and so we can give each other feedback about what we're doing well and contributing and uh, and then we can hold each other up in the, in the humanity and those weak spots that that inevitably are part of our, of our journey. So so it's yeah.
Speaker 4:As you were speaking, a lot of things were going off in my mind. Doug, I was gonna say to you I was even gonna read this one excerpt as you were speaking. I'm like, oh, I gotta say this. I think Kathy was saying this Go ahead.
Speaker 4:But I think that when you talk about women in leadership and authentic and some of the challenges around that, you have to look at the assumptions and the biases around that are put on women in terms of the kind of leader they can be. And so in the book I talked about the confidence gap theory, which basically states that we're, as women were, genetically predisposed in some way to have less confidence than men, and I say that's utter bullshit. It's not true. If you look at it like I mean going back to male-dom, right, and we, we see some of the challenges that women face. And here's and I tell a story, I think I think actually it's in the book, but I remember one day I went into work and none of the guys were there, none of them. And I went to my boss, who was a woman, and I said where are all the guys? They're at the golf tournament. And she goes. I go how come you're not there? She goes I don't know. I wasn't invited by the inspector. I play golf. All the women were not invited. And guess what happens at the golf tournaments? Right, the schmoozing, the networking, that? Oh, there's a, there's an acting position that's opened up long-term. You're going to go into it. Okay, you're going to be the new staff sergeant, right? Like that's what was happening.
Speaker 4:The mentors were assigned, so obviously the men were supported in a way where naturally the confidence came through those networking opportunities, through the supports that they had. The guys, the men in my study, talked about how they were tapped on the shoulder by a man who said I see something in you that I saw in myself and I think you'd be a great manager, and that was their path to leadership. One of my participants reached out to me after the book I think actually before the book, but after my thesis was published and he said there's a challenge that I'm experiencing. There's this young man. I want him to be a manager. I've tapped him on the shoulder. He really is fighting it tooth and nail. He doesn't want to be a manager. And this was a really small center where there was very few women, and I said I'm going to challenge you to say why don't you actually make yourself available to everyone who wants to be mentored? Because if he doesn't want to be mentored, maybe one or two of the women in your area, in your center, do right. And we talked about this last time we met. I never heard back from him. Senator do right, and we talked about this last time we met. I never heard back from him. So I don't know. He took that piece of advice, you know.
Speaker 4:But then how do you say we don't? We're predisposed to not be confident when we're put into situations like that and there's still a lot of rhetoric out there, like looking at what happened, what's happening in the states, whatever way you lean politically, there is conversation about whether kamala harris is going, is has what it takes to be the first female, first female of color president, and when some people share with me men and women that they don't think she's competent, usually it's followed up with a bit more probing, with honestly, I really don't know anything about her. So, if you're, if it's followed up with a bit more probing, with honestly, I really don't know anything about her. So, if there's no facts in terms of her competence, in terms of her career and abilities, what facts are available to you that you're basing your opinion on?
Speaker 4:There's two. What are they? She's a woman and she's a woman of color, and there you have it. And so to me, that is a deep-rooted, unconscious bias that we have and we have to ask ourselves why am I so quick to judge someone that I really know nothing about? And then ask yourself is it based on her gender and her color, her race? And then, if you start to get defensive, uncomfortable, sit with it. Just sit with it for a bit, because now you're on the path to developing self-awareness.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and the focus of my work was on gender.
Speaker 2:But I recognize that I hold a lot of privilege right and, like your participant said, he saw somebody that looked like him and we're often drawn to people who look like us.
Speaker 2:But the gift of my more recent experience has been learning from so many people with diverse backgrounds and saying help me understand, teach me more about that, and the the great wealth and wisdom that comes from, uh, people of color, people from different uh cultures uh, tell me more about that. That's really interesting and they're a collectivist viewpoint where they're taking care of everybody instead of the individualist who's the fittest, who's like me, who looks like they've got it all together. So, instead of that previous model of tapping on the shoulder, like opening that up, welcoming diversity, say, we'd love to have you participate on this, who wants to be part of this? Not because they need our help there may be other barriers but because the work will be better, because they bring perspectives that we don't have, that we need to have to create communities of mutual thriving, and so, uh, so it's, uh, it's an important piece, that, um, moving beyond what we've experienced or expected and with that learning, that learning mindset to and welcoming the difference because it's strength.
Speaker 4:There's strength in that I mean, look at the community you serve, you know they all. Are they a homogenous group of people? Chances are no, so then make sure that the people that work for your organization are supposed to serve them represent them. What's unfortunate is and I I didn't bring the article with me, but there's a lot of big companies that are slashing DEI completely or firing the DEI team. I think the Human Resources Association of the United States took equity out of their DEI initiatives. But there are other companies that are even pushing more towards DEI, which is good to hear, and I don't want to get wrong, but I think Microsoft is actually one of them. I'm not sure if anybody knows, I don't want to miss it. I'll have to check that later. But there's some big name companies that we know that are moving away from DEI, so it's unfortunate. It's good to hear other companies are not and I'm glad that we're talking about it.
Speaker 1:It so many great things brought up, I think, considering how our communities can be diverse and inclusive and be open and empathetic to that. I'd love to transition to this last category around community and self-care and, kathy, I think you're queued up because you've got a really great excerpt.
Speaker 2:You know on self-care.
Speaker 1:Shall, I do the self-care instead of community.
Speaker 2:Either one, yeah, the community or the self-care one oh, this is a short one, it's good. No, oh, this is a short one, it's good. No one can create your preferred life but you. You can't count on anyone, even a loving partner, to manage your well-being. Mutual thriving begins with personal thriving, and you are the only one who can make that happen. You can exercise agency to make your life what you want it to be.
Speaker 2:And it happens one decision at a time, saying no to the things that are not yours to do and yes to your preferred life. And part of my personality is kind of some people pleasing and wanting to fulfill people's expectations, and so learning the power of your no is really important for creating space for the yeses and moving more to that want to instead of just the should do. And if you're like me, there's occasional times I've said no and guess what? The world didn't come to an end and you're like, wow, I could have done that a long time ago. But to pursue learning, to pursue graduate, to come here tonight, you know, to say this is something that's important to me. And there's some no's that that follow up with the yes there. So yeah, and that's kind of the part of the community.
Speaker 2:We don't thrive by doing everything right. So it's what are my yeses? What is it I can offer uniquely the world that they need for me, and how do I empower others in the community that they need for me and how do I empower others, um, in the community, but also for the community, right, it's? It's about, um, yeah, if I'm not doing this, well, there's somebody who can do that and who can shine and contribute and add something that I can't do when I'm, uh, yeah, trying to do it and not be, not be threatened by that yes, yeah, not from a mindset of scarcity, yes, where you have to hold things so tightly to yourself, but one of abundance.
Speaker 4:Yeah, just to build off what you said in terms of the saying, the power of saying no. Yes, we talk a lot about too, about, um, setting a boundaries, going like beating off of and building off of the practice. Yes, you set a boundary for yourself and then give yourself some grace to practice setting it and holding it firm. Practice it. You're not always going to get it perfect out of the gate and you also have to communicate it. And then also give other people some grace for them to get used to the boundary you set and know that just because you said it doesn't mean they're always going to respect it, because if they're so used to you being a certain way, it's going to take time for them to get used to you doing something different. So, practice, give them some time and opportunity to learn what your new boundary is, but but commit to it absolutely. I think is important, so I wanted to build off of that you said something else I wanted to talk the sprint versus the marathon okay, yeah
Speaker 4:yeah okay, great, you have to talk about that, because when you said that I I was like I'm in a sprint of sprints here's a go hard and then there's a rest and pulling back and go hard again and a rest and pulling back.
Speaker 2:And one of the things that's built into my book is this practice loop of you said an intention, you practice, but then there's the noticing and adjusting Right, did that work? Why did it work? How do I self-manage? You know, I'm going to hold that boundary this time and maybe I need to ask somebody to help me. Maybe my partner helps me. I remember you were going to do something else, are you? That was a firm no for you, or maybe it's a colleague at work that helps you with that. But it, yeah, that's been a very helpful thing for me to to say, okay, there can be times of complete rest, whether that's one day, whether it's one saturday a month, where you're just like I'm just going to do whatever I want this saturday, whether that's sleeping or a walk or coffee.
Speaker 2:It, um, the practice. It doesn't have to be daily. There's some daily things, but there can be weekly or monthly things that can be very restorative, that help you, um, that help you stay in the game. You know, know, stay the distance right, because that's what we want. We want to hold the distance. A term I love is rhythms of grace Rhythms.
Speaker 4:We live in those rhythms of grace for ourself and for others, and yeah, yeah, it really resonated when you said that, because since I started my business, it's been sprints and then moments of rest, sprints and moments of rest and I feel like now we're in a full on sprint. We have our seasons where we're sprinting and it's also very tough because, you know, as a small business owner woman run in a very competitive field of work, it's hard sometimes you know, oh my God, and the uncertainty with it.
Speaker 4:And then just hustling, hustling, hustling. So I appreciate you saying like it doesn't always have to be about sacrifice, it's okay to go for the sprint, but know that when the moment of rest comes, embrace it and not feel guilty. So I went to Greece for three weeks and she was talking me off the ledge a few times because I really had to
Speaker 4:are you going to be okay? Am I abandoning you? Is this okay? Will my business collapse? Will I? And it won't, because obviously you're there and and so anyways, when I got on the plane to go to Greece and hadn't been there in six years, my parents were there and I was getting really emotional because I was able to go and, um, got a little little bit of a Prosecco there and I'm sitting down and I picked up my phone and I texted Katie, I feel so grateful for you, I feel so like everything's going to be a-okay and yeah, you remember that text. Yeah, so it ties nicely with everything you were saying and that's our community.
Speaker 2:That's our community, and there's I've got a few stories about women who work in co-leadership right, and that's a a structure that lets them have that partnership and both be human right and know that things aren't, things aren't falling. So, whether that's a colleague that you hold that with or an official co-leadership thing, there's, there are ways to do it. No, no one will take care of you but you and so uh, and so that's uh. That's the challenge and the opportunity, and when it doesn't go well, we notice and adjust, because we want to be around, to love our families, to live a great life, to know that we've made a difference and keep doing it.
Speaker 1:I think that's a very uplifting sort of way to wrap up this part of our evening. I'd love to see if there's any questions. I guess virtually, if Geri, you're able to flag any of those questions or anyone in the room for either Kathy or Joanna Louise. Oh, yeah, should we move it? Yeah, could you?
Speaker 4:Yes, we can also repeat it out loud. Would you prefer if we do that, just you say it and we can repeat it? Okay, go for it, we'll do that?
Speaker 3:Okay, I'm just wondering. I've enjoyed this evening very much. It's been excellent and the book as well is inspiring. But when I read it I thought I wish I'd known when I was 20 years old. So do you have any promotional plans to get the book into university students, young managers?
Speaker 1:Great question, yeah. So how can we get this to people? So the sentiment of I wish I had this sooner. So how do you intend to promote it or share it with people at all stages, maybe earlier on in their professional career?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm thrilled to see women of all ages here tonight. So it's wonderful to see young women early in their careers who are stepping into things and learning. Um, it's as Joanna said, the sprints and so much work when you're, when you're building toward this. I would love to develop a companion journal and courses that can be done and so. So those are next steps that I'm not quite there yet, but but Joanna does have courses that she's working and you, you can all help us.
Speaker 2:The book is here at Audrey's and to share that, and if you follow us on social media, you know opportunities that we're developing will come up. And yeah, we're excited because the power is also in the community of sharing this right as we gather in groups of women or leaders and say how do we make this a thriving workplace? How do we individually thrive and create a place where we can all do our best work? So community conversation is a great way to make that happen. So so, inviting book clubs and some friends who've already done that to to do that together, um, that's an act of leadership saying, hey, I would love to make this a better workplace. Let's do a book study and invite other people to join in and start with the people who are open to doing some reading, and both of us have have structured short chapters for people with busy lives to get a bit of an idea or a taste, uh, that you can work with and jump around a bit to see what to address your felt need at the moment.
Speaker 4:Those are all great ideas. We have a website where you can. There's a link to purchase it there. We have online courses. Every time that we do something with a client, we integrate this. We offer it through the courses that we do offer. The podcast is one way that we promote the work that we're doing, doing this book and other things that we're also promoting. Katie and I are co-authoring another book called creating brave spaces, so it's all about psychological safety in the workplace as well, so doing more things like this, I think, really help as well. So it's a great question. Thank you, and I think we should probably bring the mic. It may be easier, I don't know, but okay uh, jerry, there is a question from the chat.
Speaker 5:Okay, you'll read it out okay, I've unmuted myself, so I got a question from lydia, montreal. It's my sister. Her question is what steps or actions can be considered when wanting to create a safe space for neurodivergent people on the autism spectrum, for example, or are there resources that can be referenced?
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, I mean I don't know references off by hand. I mean, I actually I know someone who's wonderful. Her name is Tara Langdon, and I was just going to mention that. Yeah, yeah you can Google her. She is neurodiverse. She's a coach who specializes in coaching people neurodiverse. She has a website.
Speaker 2:Does she not? I watch her on LinkedIn and she gives great expectations. Curiosity is a key leadership capacity Getting curious, what do you need to do? Your best work right, Asking people. So, again, we don't need to know everything, but then being willing to make adjustments. I remember one time in my career there were going to be meetings at 8.30, department meetings and a few of us said, you know, we have a hard time. No, the meetings will be at 8.30. And I would just be, I would dropping my kids off and my stomach would be upset and I was like oh like there was really no reason why the meeting couldn't be at 8.45, right.
Speaker 2:So it's. As we start, as we step into positions of leadership, there are some hard lines, and where there aren't, why are we not opening up? What do you need? How do we create this? How do we work? And I remember apologizing to somebody I'm sorry I'm not here at like 8 15, and she said it's okay, kathy, I see you here at six, you know so. And so's here at seven they're covering the early stuff, and I know that you're, I know you're getting the job done, but I, from that early time and every time I was, running a little late for a meeting.
Speaker 2:I was like, oh, and I think I need to get there safe, right? Why did we create that? I mean, that's just such a small piece of safety and well-being for people, right? Where are the places you can flex? Ask the question what do they need? And yeah, so Tara has lots of great stuff, but it's for all of us, whether we fit in a category or not. What, what works, how do we? How do we create this?
Speaker 4:and a little bit of flexibility and honoring people's individually, I think, goes a long way for loyalty, quality of work, commitment, um yeah yeah, that to add to what you were saying, I think, uh, looking into psychological safety and and now her name escapes me Amy Edmondson yes, looking at her work, the what's her book called the Fearless Organization is the book. That's a good book to read. Follow her too. Our whole season three of our podcast, tackle Tuesdays, on creating brave spaces, which is all about psychological safety, and what we basically state is a lot of people say, create a safe space, create a safe space. But the truth is, just because we say it's a safe space doesn't make it so. So how do you work towards that? And so what we say for leaders is to start to demonstrate vulnerability and start to just like Kathy said, ask questions Don't make assumptions and get to know your people. Ask them questions, get to know who they are, what it is that they need, and start to share a little bit about yourself as well in a way that's appropriate and that you feel comfortable doing. But I think the minute you start to be vulnerable, you start to share a little bit that you're human and you make mistakes. It encourages other people to do the same. There was actually one of the participants and it's in my book. Basically, he talked about a time that he made a huge mistake and he admitted it and people came up to him and said oh my God, thank you. So I think if we can do that and people start to then start to slowly feel safer, they to come to us, they'll find the courage within them to start telling you what it is that they need and then have the courage to say like it can't always be about equality, we have to look at how we make our workplaces more equitable so that people feel like they they belong, they're included, they're, they're respected, even though they're different, they may have different needs.
Speaker 4:There's someone in our family who had a job before where it was like you will start at this time and you'll end at this time, it doesn't matter if your kids are sick, you cannot work from home.
Speaker 4:And now she has a new job and it's like you can start anywhere between I don't know exactly, I think it was like 7.30 to 8.30. She's like, oh my God, I can actually bring my kids to daycare at a decent time. I can actually get my kids from daycare and not feel stressed about it Like to me that's more of a psychologically safe workplace where we start to value people for their uniqueness and that they're different. So I of a psychologically safe workplace where we start to value people for their uniqueness and that they're different. So I think it's a process, for sure, yeah, but but what you were saying vulnerability, curiosity, psychological safety these are things what you can start to research and read more about, to learn how to how to do that and and that's the true key to well-being it's not a pizza lunch, it's not, you know, like, like, I don't mind.
Speaker 2:But if you get a piece of lunch and then they're like, and then they chastise you for being late for work, right, like it's. It's how are we treating each other? How are we setting each other up to do, to do good work and and to apologize, as a person is here to. I'm sorry I blew that. Yeah, I was having a rough day, but please forgive me and thank you for telling me that was a problem. And now I can do better. Right, as we know better, we can do better as we're more self-aware, we can show up with more kindness and and just equanimity for whatever comes empathy.
Speaker 4:Empathy is a key to that too. I think, yeah, I have a question. Yeah, empathy is the key to that too.
Speaker 3:I think I've got questions. Yeah, great answer.
Speaker 5:But just for, I've added the link to Tara's LinkedIn on our chat. Thank you, and its last name is L-A-N-G-A-N. Oh, langen, langen.
Speaker 2:Thank you. So Tara Langen, tara Langen, like I pronounced it, no D.
Speaker 4:It's okay, there's no silent D.
Speaker 1:There's no D. Maybe I'll check to see if there's one more question from the room.
Speaker 6:This is maybe like a very personal piece, but I'm just finishing a PhD and my area of expertise is in higher education, so I'm just going to ask this question. You're both talking about environments for leadership, development and sort of management and that sort of space.
Speaker 3:How did you find your doctoral programs. In that respect, first of all, congratulations, congratulations. Yeah, that's quite an amazing journey.
Speaker 4:So just to make sure I understand the question, in terms of what did I feel like the leadership was like in an academic setting?
Speaker 6:Yes, did your PhD program meet the standards you set up?
Speaker 4:Yeah, Well, you know, okay, fair enough, I had an amazing supervisor. So in that way, yes, here's the thing, because I was a practitioner, I was working at the time, I was like the in and out PhD person. I remember one of my professors said this he goes if you want to save the world with your PhD, you will never finish. So just come up with something that's practical and reasonable and just do it. And I finished it in four years. I was working full-time and I got promoted twice during that time. So I am that's one thing I'm absolutely proud of because I thought I wasn't smart enough to actually do it Right. And I have to give my PhD supervisor credit because she also bit into my confidence Right and so she was very so in many ways she represented a lot of the leadership qualities and and all of that right. And then the other professors that I connected with and bonded with were also the same way. But because I was like that in and out person, like I went in, I did my studies and I left. I didn't understand truly the full culture. But you start to talk to people and you start to get a sense for what it's like, and I have a lot of friends who work in academia as well and what I discovered was the leaders.
Speaker 4:There are a lot of similarities People in academia and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but they're professors, they're researchers. That's where their heart is. It's not leading and they don't necessarily know how to lead and they struggle there and I don't know if academia does a good job in preparing them to lead. It's probably like all the other sectors that I talked about, all the other industries. It's the same thing. They just throw them into that position. I also heard a rumor that they have a very hard time finding chairs and deans. Nobody really wants to go for those positions, so it's like pulling teeth and trying to coax people and bribe them to want to go into those positions, right? So I think there are similarities for sure, and I think there's a lot of potential for growth to support them, because we look up to those professors and want support, right, we're their employees in some ways, right, as the students and their and their PhD candidates and so on. So I hope that answers your question, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did my doctorate in.
Speaker 6:Oh yeah, sorry. Yes, I've got a mic yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I've got a mic. My doctoral work was an online degree from the university of Calgary, and I, too, had a great supervisor. I was so grateful for the way she mediated that for me and finding, you know, with anything we do the hard work of doing that work while you're working, full time comes because you're absolutely passionate, right, because there were days when I'd be studying and it was a sunny day, my family was all doing stuff and I would read something and I'm like this is why I'm doing this. It just affirmed it was in my area of, of research, and um, and uh, I, uh another shameless plug I've just published a chapter in a book called the doctoral journey.
Speaker 2:I believe everybody who embarks on that, uh, has a mountain to climb personal, academic, professional, often while they're doing that. So it's not for the faint of heart, and so, again, congratulations. So so then, your why becomes so critically important, right, when we're doing we've got these big, audacious goals and we pursue them. Your why is what is what will get you through when that's the case? So, um, and, and I mean we can't paint a brush.
Speaker 2:There's there's no perfect schools, universities, that you know. There are challenges everywhere, and so, again, my work was um, what am I in control of? How do I show up as the kind of leader and as an adjunct professor? I try to create a safe space like that and yeah, for people to pursue their passions and do what's most important for them. But this is a human endeavor where we do our best and we make mistakes and hopefully learn and keep moving forward and supporting each other to do our best, and we make mistakes and uh and and hopefully learn and keep keep moving forward and supporting each other to do our best. So, thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, let's snitch over time, but I want to.
Speaker 3:You're still here, so are there any final, final questions.
Speaker 1:We have a big room, so I want to make sure everyone has a chance. Uh, to ask Kathy and Joanna. Yeah, so I'll give it a little more time. Um, if anyone has any questions, oh, over here, yes please. I'll hand this to you thank you.
Speaker 7:I'm kind of gonna follow up on this last question and dig in a little bit on, because I love that, like I think that this is such um, just it just feels so right, everything that you guys are speaking of and writing about. But how do we make it real in the real world? And I honestly do believe that university is a big part of the problem. I know, you know, I personally know someone very closely and very well aware of what goes on and how they speak about psychological safety in their town halls and then the things that they actually do are so not not there. Yeah, you know, and to the point that you know, even even industry is saying to university like forget about the psychological safety and all that kind of stuff. Universities are preparing people to work in business. They're not teaching them the right thing. So, you know, if university isn't, isn't espousing all these things, we're not teaching people. How do we, where do we start? Where do we fix the problem?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, the mission of our company is to revolutionize workplaces and I got this line from sir ken robinson. He was a leadership expert, specifically in the education system, and he died. As I was writing the book I found out he died. I was really sad, uh. And then another theorist that I found he died too. I was like this book isn't. This book is jinxed, I guess. But any case, he said the job of a leader is climate control. I don't know if you've heard this one. It's climate control. It's about moving away from a climate of command and control to a climate of possibility. And that's our mission right To revolutionize workplaces, to create a climate of possibility where we can support leaders and teaching them the skills to maximize the human potential in the workforce. And that's our purpose and that's what we do and we we work very hard at it and we promote that and more and more people are really picking up on that. So most of our clients are government and law enforcement. So a lot of the people are reaching out to me, are the chiefs of police and their men, so they're getting it.
Speaker 4:I can't speak to academia because we don't. I'll talk about academia in a second. But I'm beginning to see a shift a little bit, because they're coming to me as a woman and saying I love what you're doing and we want that here. So I feel like I'm going to ride that tide and we're fierce gender advocates, gender equity advocates, and we're not afraid to speak what we need to say. But there's still ways to go, so we're trying to do our part that way. I've been trying to get into academia to teach for a very long time and, uh, very unsuccessfully, and so I'm doing what I can there, but I don't know. I don't know what the barrier is to me, us getting in there doing that. So I don't know how to break down that wall or break through it. Yeah, so I don't have an answer for that. That's what the part I was going to say about academia. That's my challenge with it. Oh yeah, you don't need it.
Speaker 3:Why do I keep doing that? Maybe you have thoughts about that, I don't know about that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I can't.
Speaker 2:Well, and like all work, it starts with us right. It starts with the personal work of leadership. You gather and I look around this room with like-minded colleagues and friends who have helped me show up with courage and uh for different things, and we gather the people around us who have ears to hear what we have to share because it's a personal change. Policy is helpful, but policy does not change people's hearts and that that is the work of changing people's hearts. And as I read, I was reading a beautiful novel, the Sweetness of Water, and it was about the end of the Civil War. But just because the war ended and slavery ended didn't mean that all of a sudden people got paid fairly Like. People's hearts had to change and it took courageous people to stand up and say I'm going to pay a fair wage to these Black men, and they took a lot of flack. But what gives us courage? There are people who are really trying to go back to the way things were and we're not going back and there are labor shortages everywhere. So this is a time when women can ask for what they want, and a number of women in my study had to move outside of traditional systems because the male-dom dominated hierarchical systems were not creating the kinds of opportunities they wanted to create a community that they wanted to be a part of, and so, and so you never know, I don't know everyone who's in the audience and you share with two friends and they share with two friends and you you live and model what you want to see and you raise other people up and that's that's the small community changing, changing the world.
Speaker 2:This said the quote from margaret wheatley I actually took it out who says that a small group of people can't change the world. In fact, that's all that ever has. But I studied lots of her daughter's works, mary catherine bates, and I heard a podcast and she said we could never find the book where that's written. We see that quote with margaret. She said it's totally consistent with everything she taught and lived, but but we can't find the place where she wrote or said that actual, uh, that actual uh term and it um, you know I can't watch the big world picture a lot.
Speaker 2:That news is too discouraging. So that we can choose our thinking right and we can choose what we fill our minds and hearts with, and we can choose our companions and we choose those people who lift us up, and that's what gives me hope to carry on, and we offer our little piece and hope that everyone else will step in. So that's yeah, that's my offering to that, recognizing a need for great change and lots, all, all, lots of pockets of goodness and and still lots of progress to make what I loved most about what you said was courage, courage, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, try, maybe we can wrap it up.
Speaker 1:We'll wrap up and, of course, you're invited to stick around and mix, mingle, come up and chat with kathy and joanna, um, so I'll end off by saying thank you so much again to all of you for coming out tonight. This was a really energizing conversation, so thank you to both of these impressive women for writing the book and sharing it and speaking so openly and vulnerably tonight. So a big round of applause, thank you.
