When They Say You Can't, Show Them You Will | Season 5 Ep. 4

SUMMARY

Commanding Officer Rhonda Blackmore shares her remarkable 29-year journey through the male-dominated field of policing, from frontline work to becoming the leader of F Division in Saskatchewan. Her experiences breaking barriers, navigating bias, and developing a people-first leadership philosophy provide powerful insights for anyone facing challenges in their career advancement.

HIGHLIGHTS
• Breaking barriers requires both resilience and relationship building
• When faced with bias, Blackmore's attitude is "bring it on, I'll show you what I've got"
• The importance of distinguishing between mentorship (guidance) and sponsorship (active advocacy)
• Women often need to meet 8/10 criteria to apply for jobs while men apply with just 5/10
• Taking chances and stepping outside your comfort zone expands what you're capable of
• Feedback is crucial for growth – always ask what you can improve after setbacks
• The "Queen Bee Syndrome" can prevent women from supporting each other in leadership
• Blackmore's leadership philosophy: "Take care of your people and your career takes care of itself"

Remember, as Christopher Robin told Winnie the Pooh, "You're stronger than you seem, braver than you believe, and smarter than you think."

Chapters

• 0:00 Breaking the Glass Ceiling Introduction
• 2:51 Meet Commanding Officer Rhonda Blackmore
• 6:27 Navigating Identity Challenges in SWAT
• 16:05 Mentorship vs. Sponsorship in Leadership
• 22:22 Overcoming Self-Doubt and Gender Bias
• 32:36 Taking Chances and Creating Opportunities
• 44:17 People-First Leadership Philosophy
• 53:15 Supporting Other Women in Leadership

Transcript

Katie: 1:05

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Tackle Tuesday podcast this season. As you know, if you've tuned into our earlier episodes, we're exploring women and leadership, and today's conversation is all about breaking the glass ceiling. So the barriers, challenges and triumphs of women rising to leadership roles in traditionally male-dominated spaces. Last episode we explored mentorship and networking, how women can build strong support systems to advance in leadership, and today we're shifting our focus to the barriers that still exist and how leaders like our guest have pushed past them to carve out a path for themselves and others. So I'm very excited for our conversation with this guest. I'll have Joanna introduce them and then we'll get going. So, joanna, over to you.

Johanna: 1:45

Yeah, thank you so much. So we are thrilled to welcome today's guest, who is the commanding officer of F Division for the RCMP in Saskatchewan. Welcome, thank you for joining us. How are you doing today? Doing well, joanna.

Rhonda: 1:59

Thanks for having me.

Johanna: 2:00

Oh, yeah, this is wonderful. I'm going to share a little bit of your background and then what we'd like to do is kind of get into some of the questions that we have for you. Sounds great, okay. So Commanding Officer Blackmore started her career in F Division, so you're in F Division now as the Commanding Officer, and that's exactly where you started your career Exactly. Came full circle. Oh, you did come full circle, right? Yes, okay, so you began your career in F Division where you performed general duty policing and please tell me if I mispronounce this Assiniboia, assiniboia, yeah, assiniboia. Thank you, regina and Buffalo Narrows. And you were there for seven years, correct? Okay, you have 29 years of service with the RCMP under your belt.

Johanna: 2:41

I do, and you held leadership roles across the country, from frontline policing in Saskatchewan to shaping national policies in Ottawa. You have broken barriers at every stage of your career, rising through the ranks now to serve, as we mentioned, as the commanding officer of F Division in Saskatchewan. Your career spans policing operations, national security, emergency response and policy leadership. You have overseen large-scale law enforcement initiatives. You have led teams, large-scale law enforcement initiatives. You have led teams through high-stake crises and shaped progressive policing policies. Beyond your impressive resume Rhonda, you are deeply committed to a people-first leadership, which we're really excited to talk to you about because, as you know, our company really focuses on putting people first and helping organizations do that. So we're really excited to talk to you about your philosophy and practice around those leadership principles. So you believe in the power of mentorship and the importance of lifting others and leading with integrity and care. We're so happy to have you here. Thank you for joining us.

Katie: 3:42

Perfect. And also, just before we started recording, rhonda shared this is her first podcast experience. So, joanna, that's a little thrill. That's exciting for Joanna and I that Tackle Tuesday gets to be the first one. Yeah, yeah, we're very honored. So I mean, as I mentioned at the top, today's conversation is all about breaking the glass ceiling, so this invisible yet very real barriers that sometimes keep women from advancing into leadership roles. So, as Joanna touched on, you've navigated an industry where women are still underrepresented in top leadership. So, from your early years in policing to becoming commanding officer of F Division, you've no doubt encountered, we imagine, some challenges, perhaps biases, moments where you had to push past those boundaries. So, to ease us in, we always like to start with a reflection question for our listeners, for ourselves, for our guests, to ponder as we ease into these topics. So Joanna's got one queued up for you and I'll turn it to you, joanna.

Johanna: 4:34

And just so you know, to prime you, we will ask you to answer the reflection question. Then Katie and I will answer it as well. We like to give our own experience to this as well. After everyone's had a chance, our listeners have had a chance to reflect on it. So here's the question Breaking barriers takes courage, resilience and support. What we'd like our listeners to do is to take a moment pause and think about a time in your life when you faced a challenge because of the dimensions of your identity, for example, your gender, your background or your role. How did you navigate it and what did you learn from your experience?

Rhonda: 5:22

Yeah, the one that came to mind for me was when I tried out for the emergency response team, for the tactical unit, or some people know it as SWAT back in 2003. So this is quite a number of years ago. A SWAT back in 2003. So this is quite a number of years ago and I was invited to the tryout the week-long tryout camp, I guess you'd call it that they were hosting in Ottawa for the full-time emergency response team. There I was with 17 males doing the tryouts and it was certainly a challenging week. Interestingly, I didn't know this at the time, but afterwards I found out that the individual from the ERT team who was coordinating that week had made a comment to the team that there is not a chance we are getting a female on this team. That is not going to happen.

Rhonda: 6:07

But I, I guess naively or innocently I just went into it with putting my best effort in everything, and it included everything from physical challenges, shooting, lots of decision making, memory tasks.

Rhonda: 6:22

We covered a whole gamut of different tasks and put my best foot forward and everything, and just worked my butt off that week and in the end, interestingly, all of the assessors, including the individual who had made that comment ranked me as their number one selected candidate.

Rhonda: 6:39

So he came quite a ways. Just, you know, observing me, I guess, that week and seeing how hard I worked and you know a lot of people talk about sometimes, as a woman, you have to prove yourself. Or, you know, do a little bit worked, and you know a lot of people talk about sometimes, as a woman, you have to prove yourself or, you know, do a little bit more. And I'm actually okay with that because I'm the type of all right, bring it on, I'll show you what I got kind of attitude as opposed to more you know, being offended by that that I have to show you because I'll show you All right. So I think that's kind of what happened that week. And then once he saw that you know how hard I worked and capability and teamwork, all of some of my philosophies, he was sold. So yeah, it was a positive experience for me. But again, I didn't know the background of it till afterwards, but it turned out really well, yeah, you said you were invited.

Johanna: 7:36

How does one get an invite?

Rhonda: 7:38

So you had applied for it. The officer in charge at the time was interested in having a female. He had sort of made that known and I reached out to him and I said I would love to try out. And he said Well, you know, maybe we could develop you so that you could get to the point where you could pass the physical standards. And I said I can do them tomorrow if you'd like. He said Really, and I don't think he believed me necessarily because he said Okay, and we set a time. In the next morning, literally the next day, I went and went through all the standards and passed all the physical standards. So that was, I think, sort of okay, you can do this, we don't have to work with you to get you to that level. And so that certainly helped.

Johanna: 8:21

Oh yeah, cause I was going to say what did you do to prepare for that, but it seems like you had been preparing your whole career for that.

Rhonda: 8:28

Yeah, I'm a fitness person. Fitness is part of my daily routine. I get up very early now so that I can make sure I get it included in my day, and that's something that I just do. So you know, the standards that they had were good standards, but I wouldn't say they were over the top for me. I had to bench press 145 pounds. I had to do six pull-ups, things like that. A mile and a half run in a certain time. So yeah, but it went well.

Johanna: 8:58

What did you bring to the emergency response team as the only woman on the team? A very different perspective.

Rhonda: 9:08

I think you know the guys after they sort of saw me and tryouts and then when I was brought over to the team it was very much male dominated and attack guys. You know they have to be strong, they have to be tough. That's kind of their mo that you need. That's what they're looking for in a lot of cases. And so when you bring in a different perspective of a female, I think it added a dimension of different approach. Right, maybe a little bit. Okay, maybe we don't need to do this macho stuff all the time like dial her down a bit boys, and we just got along really well and I had some skills that maybe some of them didn't have, that I was able to assist with some things that I had from different experiences my policy experience at headquarters and things like that that maybe they hadn't experienced. So brought some of those dimensions as well.

Johanna: 10:06

Right.

Johanna: 10:07

As you know, my husband, who is a retired member of the Edmonton Police Service, spent many years of his career in TAC right, first as a frontline operator, I would say, and then eventually came in as a leader, as a staff sergeant.

Johanna: 10:19

One of the things he wanted to do was bring in a woman the first woman into the TAC team. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to achieve that goal or objective. But one of the things he did and I'd like to get your thoughts on that was he tried to change the fixed mindset around, like you said, the macho-ness of what it takes to be a TAC person, like the archetype of the TAC officer in terms of the strength, the speed, the tactical kind of stuff around firearms and things like that the tactics, I guess and bring in more of the emotional intelligence side, the leadership competencies, into decision making. He felt like that was a gap and he said he thought it can't just be the brute force that we focus on. We also have to be assessing potential new tactical officers for their emotional intelligence. What are your thoughts on that in terms of the leadership aspect of the emergency response team?

Rhonda: 11:10

that in terms of the leadership aspect of the emergency response team, absolutely. I couldn't agree with that more. I think when you look at ERT or SWAT, the biggest skill you can bring to that group is being a team player. Because you can be the toughest guy, you can be the fastest guy, you can lift hundreds of pounds and do all of the physical stuff and be the big macho workout guy. But if you're not a team player it doesn't work because everything you do with that team is about team. It's about doing high risk entries as a team. It's about doing high risk vehicle stops as a team. You can't be someone who just goes off on their own and is an individual not aligned with the team's way of thinking. It just doesn't work. So to me, I think what I was able to bring you know that sort of element that OK, if you're a strong team player, maybe you don't have to be able to.

Rhonda: 12:04

We used to laugh because we used to say you know you, lift truck can't spell truck. That that's not. That doesn't work, right. You know lift truck can't spell truck. That doesn't work right. You know like you need to be able to bring different skills but at the end of the day, you need to work with your teammates as a team and that emotional intelligence of leadership, of how we get people on board, because some people think you know that group of individuals is so easy to lead because they're all highly motivated and type A personalities. They're some of the toughest because they are type A. They come with very defined ideas and are always happy to give you their perspective all in. So sometimes you have those conflicting ideas and that has to be managed by the leaders of the team. We were very fortunate we had exceptional leaders who did that and brought the team together and it worked well. But I think that is key to it that emotional intelligence piece of the leadership around the team.

Johanna: 13:05

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that, Rhonda. I mean before I hand it over to you, Katie, to dive into some of the next questions that we have. Like I said, we always like to answer some of our own questions around, like any of the reflection questions we ask. So, in terms of a challenge you face, maybe because of the dimensions of your identity, Katie, do you have an example or experience you can share?

Katie: 13:25

Oh, I got so pulled into listening to what Rhonda shared. I wasn't prepared. I mean, at the beginning, when you shared the question, I was just thinking of my own shift. Rhonda worked in higher education before this in the university setting. So student services, student mental health and a lot of the caring profession areas were very actually female dominated. So as I rose in formal leadership positions, yeah I'd say there were probably more men around the table, but it was a shift when, joanna, we started working especially with some of the law enforcement folks and I'm thinking of a few sessions we've done in the last few years where we were the only women in a room of 80 men and that was newer for me, like kind of that shift and just hearing more and I think my curiosity to learn more from women in these areas it's been interesting. So I'll leave it at that. I'm curious to your thoughts, joanna, but that has been an interesting shift for me.

Johanna: 14:14

Right and it's so normal for me. I've been a civilian in law enforcement for many years, but I've gotten used to sometimes being the only woman in the room and fast forward. I started working in law enforcement in 2007 with the Calgary Police Service as an instructional designer and, yes, more often than not we were the only women in the room. Most of the instructional designers were women, and so we found ourselves always working with men, so I've just kind of gotten used to that. But now that I started my own company, it is unfortunate, I'd say, Fast forward. Oh my God, nearly 20 years later, holy moly, it's 20 years almost.

Johanna: 14:51

But and we're still seeing that in some pockets, you know, in law enforcement across Canada and the mindset around that, Ron, is what we hear, and this is where the fixed, unconscious bias mindset comes in, which is so hard to tackle.

Johanna: 15:06

Because what and it's the same thing is true we work a lot with the safety industry and different industries within safety, like engineering energy Engineers are also known for this where there's not a lot of women in that field, and what we hear is hey, we want women, we welcome women.

Johanna: 15:25

They just, you know, they come, they start and they realize it's not for them and they choose to leave without taking any accountability or responsibility for some of the environment that they created for women to not want to go.

Johanna: 15:37

And it's just challenging to deal with that mindset and one of the things that I read that I share with individuals who have that mindset is like I read this great articles about women in the tech industry and one of the key findings that they discovered was, unless we change the systemic barriers that women face in these industries, it's no different than telling someone who's in a wheelchair we welcome you into the building, you just have to figure out how you're going to get up the flight of stairs to get in.

Johanna: 16:06

Oh, you can't get in, oh well, you're making the choice not to join us. I'm like that's not fair, is it? So we need to start seeing these invisible barriers as visible and take accountability in it. So those are some of the challenges that I face now in my career is to work with these agencies to truly advocate for women and any other underrepresented group, to help them see these biases. But it's tough because the minute you see when you're confronted against one, you become defensive and it takes a lot of patience and compassion to help someone work through that.

Rhonda: 16:38

For sure, for sure, and I think sometimes you know you talked about the wheelchair example because you can see the barrier right, it's very visible. I can't get up the steps. Interestingly, my dad, many years ago, was in a car accident, was left quadriplegic in a wheelchair and oftentimes I would be with him, I'd be pushing the wheelchair and we meet people. We grew up near a small town. He'd be in the town and people he knew would stop and talk to him and they would talk to me like their eye contact would be with me, not him. So I learned to just stop. I would turn my back as if I was looking at something else, forcing them to have to talk to him. So it was an easy barrier to overcome.

Rhonda: 17:20

I think when you're looking at biases, when you talk about gender, those types of things they're they're a little more hidden. You can't put your finger on it. And then you know at times you think am I being paranoid here? Is this because I'm a woman? You know they won't come out maybe and say it, even though the bias is there. I think some of the you know what we maybe would have seen comments from 20, 25 years ago that comments would be made. People have figured out okay, I'm not going to be able to make that comment, but it almost has gone underground for some of those individuals that you know. It shows in different ways. You don't get selected for a promotion and sometimes maybe I'm not the best candidate, but maybe there was a bias there. So it's hard harder, I think to put your finger on it and say this is the problem or or the proof maybe, as opposed to allege that someone in a wheelchair can't get up.

Johanna: 18:13

Exactly yeah, which speaks nicely to what we're going to dive into, which is the glass ceiling.

Katie: 18:17

Katie, yeah, let me shift us there. I think that leads really nicely. So, yeah, the glass ceiling again not just a metaphor, it's something women across industries, as we've talked about, still experience. So I've got a few just quick bullets here on some of what the research tells us. And then I've got another question here. So women remain underrepresented in leadership. So while progress has been made I've got a stat here only 30% of senior leadership roles this is globally are held by women across industries.

Katie: 18:46

Women in male-dominated fields often experience more scrutiny, higher expectations and limited access to sponsorship compared to their male peers. In our episode with Heather this season we talked about A lot of the research is indicating more women are experiencing mentorship, so that's great, but not as much of the sponsorship, so that advocacy or that support to help them really progress, that's lacking. And then leadership is often judged very differently, and we've talked a bit about this in some of our earlier episodes. So women are often expected to be both strong and likable, while men are often expected to simply be competent and show competence. So there's a lot we can unpack there. I thought I'd introduce that and then lead into my next question. So, rhonda, you've talked a bit about some of your experiences, but I'm thinking, if you look at your whole career in policing, a field where, again, leadership has been historically male-dominated, what were some of the key challenges you faced as you advanced throughout your career.

Rhonda: 19:41

Yeah, I think it's exactly like I mentioned there. You know some of that bias that you were really sure was there, but you just can't you don't have the proof, maybe, or you can't say or counter the argument that's being made. I've been very fortunate in my career because I've not only had amazing mentors my career, because I've not only had amazing mentors, I've had that sponsorship. So I've had the bad boss, I've had the bias boss, gender, all of those pieces but I've also had the amazing bosses, who were absolutely incredible advocates for me, making sure that I had support and you know, can't say enough about how I wouldn't be where I am without what they did for me, for sure.

Katie: 20:27

And I'm curious maybe we can dig in a bit to that. I mean, what were some of the things that you most appreciated or gained out of that support and that sponsorship you mentioned?

Rhonda: 20:35

I was. I had worked for someone who was, I would say, incredibly biased towards women and it wasn't a great experience. And I was at the time I was in Ottawa and I was in an area that was pretty male dominated, looking at use of force and police intervention, and new boss came in and very different from the boss we had. And I just recognized this very early on, almost questioning me Like how dare you, how could you, why would you know this, those types of comments. And I just thought I'm not doing this again, I'm not going through this.

Rhonda: 21:15

And I went to the individual who was his boss, who we all ultimately reported up to, and I said I'm not doing this, so transfer me because I'm not going to work here. And he said perfect, I need someone to come and work for me and you're it, I would love to have you. And I was transferred, essentially like within a week, and you know it was such a great opportunity for me working for him, working at sort of a higher level. It was absolutely incredible. So I don't know, I I coined it as rescuing me from, you know, a bad situation and I had that happen a couple of times. Uh, individuals who you know. Basically said we get this is not good, so we're going to get you to a spot where you can really shine.

Katie: 22:02

Oh, I like that. Well, you say rescue me. But it's interesting. I was going to first say you know, you said transfer me. Like it sounds like you sort of stepped up to say this isn't working and kind of some advocacy for yourself. And I'm just thinking you know a lot of the women we coach and talk to and some of our own experiences, joanna. You can get kind of stuck right and you know self-doubt or imposter syndrome or just like kind of feeling paralyzed with what to do and so kind of cool that you took some steps to shift and then look what happened.

Rhonda: 22:32

So yeah, and I think you know, based on my previous experience, because I did have another experience that really led me to the point where my confidence was crushed you start to believe what you're being told, that, oh, I have no potential, I have no future. Okay, well, maybe they're right. And if no one is telling you otherwise, that's what you're hearing and that's what you start to believe, and coming out of that on the other side and recognizing that's not accurate, I just wasn't going to let myself go back to that point again.

Rhonda: 23:05

And what helped you come out of that, because that's tough, like you know, when that, like you said, you start to believe some of what you're hearing, or yeah, two other males that I had worked for again had a new project and they needed someone to come work on it and they came and said, like we really need Rhonda, we need her to come and work here and eventually took a little bit but I was released to go over to that new project and again was just supported and given so much opportunity it got me, got my feet back underneath me.

Katie: 23:37

That's great. It sounds a little bit and we've talked about this in earlier episodes but those relationships, the network that you have, the ways that you were able to maybe tap in or expand on that at times when you needed it.

Johanna: 23:49

You mentioned you had a sponsors. Absolutely. How did you get the sponsors?

Rhonda: 24:05

Well, I had worked for them and again, I don't know if it's good fortune. I think sometimes, you know, it's a little bit of good luck, a little bit of timing and a lot of hard work that gets you to a certain spot. It's interesting because I was given some great opportunities in Ottawa and worked for people and I'm when I'm in, I'm in, 100 percent, all in and they really appreciated the work that I had done when I worked for them and kind of that came around. But these individuals are just remarkable individuals. They just understood like there was nothing about them that said, you know, we want males, we want females. They just needed people to get the work done and they wanted the best product and recognize that.

Rhonda: 24:40

So again, a little bit of good luck, I guess, to have them, uh, to be able to have the work done and they wanted the best product and recognize that. So, again, a little bit of good luck, I guess, to have them to be able to have the opportunity to work for them. But that really helped me and I think it's a little bit, you know, I had so much respect for them. When they come and get you and say we need this person to do this specific project. It that in itself boosts your confidence when someone that you look up to sort of says we appreciate you as well.

Johanna: 25:09

Yeah, one of the things that you said that made me think about luck, this whole concept of luck right, and you said it, I was just lucky. But, yes, opportunities present themselves in different ways and we have to be, I guess, vigilant and take the initiative to take advantage of those opportunities or the lucky moments that do pop up, rather than it sounds like you were quite active in pursuing the opportunities that came out of being lucky, being in the right place at the right time. Is that kind of accurate?

Rhonda: 25:42

Yeah, I'll just tell you Absolutely. I'll tell you a little experience I had when I was at Depo, our training academy here in Regina, as a cadet. I had a driving instructor who we were out for a drive one day and he said, oh, today's my anniversary in the RCMP. So I thought, oh, wouldn't it be nice to do something nice for him. So I went after classes and I asked one of the other instructors can I get the keys to his car? Because in those days they had a car. And I went and I washed it and I vacuumed it and I just did it. Just, you know, happy anniversary. I did a little extra.

Rhonda: 26:16

Well, fast forward, that was 1995. Fast forward to 2002, he ends up being in staffing in Ottawa when this unilingual constable is coming with my then spouse to Ottawa on a transfer and people are saying we have no spaces for unilingual constables and I probably wasn't going to have a job. And he said, no, I know, rhonda, we want to keep her, we're going to put her in a policy center, so something that we wouldn't normally have done. So a little bit of luck that he was in that job, but a little bit of self-created, because, you know, doing that little extra many years earlier paid off.

Johanna: 26:51

Right. One of the challenges that we have with some of the women we work with is this taking self-initiative to put yourself in a position where you can achieve your goals, rather than kind of sit and passively wait, whether that is dealing with a challenge at work or where that's being an active participant in your own career and going after promotion. I'll give it. A common example I hear is I'd like to be promoted. A. I'm reluctant to even have that conversation with my boss. B. I've had that first conversation with my boss, but nothing has ever happened, and I told them that there's an opportunity that I'd like to take advantage of, but my boss has done nothing about it, and they feel as though deflated, and I guess that's the end of it for me. Then what advice would you give to women who have that mindset?

Rhonda: 27:44

I think, as women and we were talking about this here just recently we tend to we have to be perfect, right? So if that job that I really really want that promotion, it has 10 things that I should meet, or 10 things you need to apply, if I have eight out of 10, I'll be like, oh, I probably shouldn't apply because I only have eight, Whereas males and I'll caveat this by saying I have five brothers, so I grew up with lots of males around me, they're the, I got five, I'm good, I'm going to put my name in there, I've got a good chance of this. And so it's a very different approach, approach or different way of thinking that I'll take that chance, whereas women, I see, I think we tend to sit back and wait for that. I'm just not quite good enough. And so one of the things I would say was you know, take the chances yourself.

Rhonda: 28:37

But to other women out there, never underestimate the power of saying to someone gee, joanna, have you ever thought about going into communications? You're amazing. And it plants a seed. I probably never would have even thought about trying out for ERT. When I was graduating from Depo, about two weeks before, a male instructor there said to me you should really think about ert someday. I think you've got everything it takes and that that sits with you, that stays with you and that gives you that little bit of confidence, maybe a boost to your confidence, that you need. So never underestimate those comments, because we might have a chat and we might talk about someone and say, well, they're really good at this, but have you told them? And maybe that's like the difference when they see that I only have eight criteria to 10. But I remember Joanna told me I was really good at this, so I'm going to give it a go and see how it works out, right.

Johanna: 29:34

And I think, also just asking more than once for something. Just because you ask for it once or even twice and it doesn't happen, keep asking. You know, at least keep asking to find out. Is there actually an opportunity? Maybe twice isn't enough. People have other priorities and think about other things. Be your own fiercest advocate. Don't put somebody else in the position to advocate for you.

Johanna: 29:56

So I remember one time I had, I think, six to eight conversations with my boss about seeing an opportunity in the organization to create a new leadership position that I wanted to compete for. I was like this position needs to be created to make us more efficient and effective as an organization. I would love to compete for it, but regardless it needs to be created. And how many times did I have that conversation? It never got created and at least it gave me the data and the evidence that I needed that if I did want a promotion, I wasn't going to have the opportunity there. So I left.

Johanna: 30:26

There was a promotion opportunity outside of the organization. I went there and several years later ended up coming back into the organization to take that manager position because it had finally been created Not when I wanted it to be, but eventually it was, and I came back guess what? With a lot more experience. I was better positioned because I had gone outside with new experience when I came back. And then, if I think, I've just got promoted within, so looking at those opportunities and not seeing them as, oh that sucks, I'm going to give up, but looking at, as this is where I'm meant to be, and just taking the leap, like you said, and looking at what you do have, not what you don't. I like that.

Rhonda: 31:02

And I think the other piece I would say is always ask for feedback. Yes, Okay, I didn't get the job. Instead of going sitting in the corner and pouting and being mad about it, go back and say can you tell me where I can approve? What can I do better? Well, you know you presented poorly or you seem not ready, and it gives you something that my personality has been. I've been described a couple of times by people as dog with a bone, Like I don't let go of things until we're going to, we're going to achieve this, and you tell me, no, okay, what can we do differently? And let's try it from a different approach to get to where I want to be. So when you ask for that feedback, go back, work on that area and come back sort of 2.0 version of yourself for the next opportunity.

Johanna: 31:47

Katie, before you ask the next question, I also want to kind of it's kind of building off of what you said earlier. We're going to dive more into the feedback because that's critical, I think, self. It helps you build that self-awareness which I think differentiates okay leaders from amazing leaders or the ones that commit to developing their self-awareness by getting that feedback to uncover blind spots, areas of improvement. There was an aha moment. I don't want to miss this because I think it's important to share with the women in our Women Up program. Katie, is this whole thing about sponsorship and mentorship? I'm discovering this more and more is to reimagine what we mean by sponsor and mentor.

Johanna: 32:21

Sponsors and mentors exist all around us. It's the people we already know and maybe the people we haven't met yet. But it's about the connections and the relationships that we have, continually nurturing those and building those, and then, when the time is right to ask for support or for a transfer, it's to go to them. They become your natural sponsors. So what you had shared with me made me realize is you don't have to go to somebody, knock on their door and be like will you be my sponsor? It's about the relationships with the people that we already have, and it's about re-envisioning how that relationship can support us in our career development. So that was just an aha moment I had as you were speaking and I think that's important to show our listeners and the women in our program who are struggling to figure out how to access and secure sponsors and mentors for their career development.

Katie: 33:08

Well, and as you were saying that and I pulled out a lot, rhonda, of what you said, of just everything you talked about was relationship. You know, like the little things you did and how that came back. I mean, that came up in our last interview for our episode with Heather, something she's mentioned, I think, at a meeting or a conference years later someone said when you said that thing and she didn't even remember the person or the thing, but that was everything. So when you said, you know, don't underestimate the power of also when you say see something, call it out or encourage someone, and so I just think sometimes it doesn't just need to be transactional, I guess, to your point, joanna, of like I need a mentor, I need a sponsor At times you might need to seek that out, but it's really about considering the relationship. So sorry, rhonda, I cut you off. I think you were about to say something, but that was just standing out through everything you shared.

Rhonda: 33:50

Yeah, no, to me it really comes down to a lot of that. You know, we go to funerals and people say so many nice things at a funeral and you think wouldn't it have been nice for them to hear that when they were alive? And we don't, we don't, we just assume like, and sometimes, sometimes maybe we're intimidated. I'm sort of like let's talk, let's talk about this, let's have those conversations, let's make sure people hear the good stuff that I see in them, so that maybe it'll help them see it themselves if they don't.

Katie: 34:21

Well, and that's what you and I'm thinking too, and woman, up there's a session. We added some stuff on confidence. Everyone wants to work on their confidence so you know we've shared in the podcast. Often it's also hearing from other women being reminded of some of their strengths that they already have, but also some tools Someone shared an expert who wrote a book on some of this stuff around confidence said she has. I think she called it like a happy folder. So you know, feedback, positive feedback. You know, yes, be open to all the feedback, but the things, the feel good folder, and when you're having that day when you're feeling really shitty or you're doubting yourself, go to the feel good folder. And Joanna, you've talked about, you have a version of that that especially when you launch the business, you really turn to some of that feedback, I think. So I mean like, yeah, that's helpful. Yeah, well, it was me, I have the feel good folder. Yeah, so you feel good. She had another name for it, but like same idea, yeah, yeah.

Johanna: 35:09

I did a 360 Ronda, but when I wanted to start the company, when I wanted to resign from government and launch my own business, I thought I need to get feedback on what I'm capable of ultimately and what my areas of growth are. If I'm going to launch this business venture, I better know what I think I know about myself. Is it accurate? Is it spot on? Are there things I don't know? So I did a 360 in a sense. I asked five open-ended questions, I sent it out to at least 20 people and the things that they shared even the things that were opportunities for growth really motivated and inspired me and I created this little folder which still is in my email inbox. It's called Feel Good and that's where the feedback goes and that's where I go for moments of inspiration. And I think you know, if we don't always have access to a person that we can call up to say help me get through my fixed mindset funk, we can go there for that inspiration.

Rhonda: 36:05

So yeah, okay, absolutely. I was just going to say I'd strongly advocate for that. Keep those positive things, because they're really important.

Johanna: 36:15

Okay, navigating barriers and bias. Okay, I wanted to dive more into this. Ronna, you talked about proving ourselves and you're not necessarily against that. I wanted to dive a little bit more into that. So we do have women that have shared with us. I feel like I always have to prove myself more than the men. Okay, and we listen to those experiences that they have and, honestly, sometimes I'm at a loss in terms of how to respond or how to re-inspire them, even though that is the experience that they have. So you said in your own experience you thought sometimes it's not necessarily a bad thing. Can you just share a little bit more about that experience that you've had and that may help and support other women to kind of work through that when they feel like they're in that space?

Rhonda: 37:01

Yeah, and I think you know it's a difference if it's every day, day after day, year after year, that you just can't get ahead, and you know you constantly have to prove yourself. I guess in my experience I've been fortunate in that when I've been challenged to have to prove myself and I gave the example of the ERT tryouts it worked out well because there were, despite the individual who said that they weren't going to have a female on the team, he was open enough to say, okay, this person meets our requirements and would be good for our team, as opposed to completely being nope. I said no and I'm never changing my mind. So you know there's a. I think there's a limit on it too. If you know, if it's all the time, you can't do that either.

Rhonda: 37:49

But I look at it. You see the smile on my face when people say, oh, I don't know if you could do that. Oh, yeah, watch me. And I don't know I could do that. Oh, yeah, yeah, watch me. And uh, I don't know. I think I was born with that attitude, I'm not sure, but uh, I it. To me it comes across as a challenge and I'm happy to take your challenge and I am going to show you what I can do.

Johanna: 38:13

It goes back to, like what we teach around, the fixed and growth mindset. So you can have a fixed mindset in terms of your abilities, that you are. You have a cap on what your potential is and you got to stay within that cap if you will, like. You can't exceed it or else you may fail. So when people make you feel as though you have to prove yourself, it may get you to shrink back into that little you know box that you've created for yourself, whereas yourself, when you talk about, yeah, I'll prove you wrong.

Johanna: 38:45

To me that's more of the growth mindset, where you're like here's an opportunity, even maybe for myself, to test the own boundaries of what I can do Some of the stuff I know I can do and others we're going to find out. I guess I'm going to find out too, but I'm going to be able to prove them wrong as well, and it's just about trying it and seeing. And that's the growth mindset that I think we need to nurture within ourselves. We have to be self-aware, and I think it goes back to getting feedback around when you're in that fixed mindset and it's preventing you from fulfilling your own potential and sometimes muting the noise around you so you could venture outside of your comfort zone. I heard this great thing and I use it all the time. When we venture outside of our comfort zone, our comfort zone gets bigger. I love that.

Rhonda: 39:27

Absolutely. We're creatures of habit, right? We, you know, same old, same old, do the same thing. And sometimes it takes someone else telling you can you really do that? And if you say, oh, I don't think so and shy away from it, then you're going to continue in that same old, same old. So it's about challenging yourself but using some of that to let others challenge you as well. And if you fail, you know, don't be scared. Right, great, saying right. Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn. And if you approach things that way that this is a learning opportunity, even if I fail, what can I take from it? I think you have much more opportunity for growth.

Katie: 40:08

Well, I was just going to say I think that's exactly when we teach you know the fixed growth mindset and we talk about you know how do we coach ourself at times and others out of a fixed mindset. And I think what you just said is that, like, how can I reframe, how can this challenge help me learn something? Or what's the worst thing that can happen? And I like, yeah, you know finding those hidden opportunities within it, but if that's not a natural place, our mind goes, how do we just have a script ready to sort of challenge those immediate thoughts that come up that prevent us from expanding that zone?

Johanna: 40:36

So that just, I think presented a good way to look at it. You just made me think of something as an activity to do with women is to get them to write their growth mindset script.

Katie: 40:45

Well, yeah, because again we have our default and I think Joanne and I, I think a lot of times have a similar like bring it on, okay, challenge very like growth, you know, but that's also in certain areas of our life. I think there's certain areas where we don't have that and some people that's really hard. So, yeah, the script idea could be kind of interesting.

Johanna: 41:02

Oh yeah, like I would say to our listeners right now like even hit pause or after you listen to our episode is identify what your fixed mindset script is and write it. And then write your growth mindset script and have that on your phone so anytime that you're starting to navigate into the fixed mindset arena you have, you know what it is because you've written the script you can identify it immediately to then trigger you having to look at your growth mindset script to get you to shake yourself out of it. Because the question is, like you said, katie, what's at risk if we don't try? I would even say what's at risk when you do try, meaning what are the positive consequences that can come out by trying, not only for yourself, but others around you.

Rhonda: 41:48

Absolutely, and I think, joanna, I think, to go one step further write down what's the worst thing that could happen if I fail.

Katie: 41:55

I love that question. What is the?

Rhonda: 41:57

worst, absolute worst thing. Yeah, you know, when we, when we look at risk in the, you know, in the organization we're in, we make a lot of decisions of doing something, but you also have to look at the consequences of not doing that. Yes, so if we, if we do this, there's risk. If we don't, is there greater risk, because there's risk to everything. There's risk to getting out of bed in the morning right, there's risk to getting in your car. There's always risk. But you have to do that risk assessment, this versus something else, to make it actually valid. Simon.

Johanna: 42:26

Sinek Okay, I like Simon Sinek. I feel like the world has been saturated with Simon.

Katie: 42:32

You've been bringing him up a lot lately though, joanna, you're on a roll.

Johanna: 42:35

If I listen to one more video of Simon Sinek I'm going to scream. But you know what the man says. Sometimes it sticks. He said this he goes. There's two people in this world the ones that see what they want, and then there's the ones that see what's preventing them from getting what they want. He goes. You have to think and reflect on which one are you, because if all you see are the barriers that prevent you from getting what you want, will you ever get what you want?

Rhonda: 43:03

Yeah, you won't, you won't get past them. And like for myself in my career, I didn't join the RCMP and say I'm going to be a commanding officer, someday I'm going to be an assistant commissioner, someday I was more just all right, let's see what this career brings. And someday I was more just all right, let's see what this career brings. And opportunities came along and sure I'll try that. You know left turns lots of times.

Rhonda: 43:24

I often say if you look at my CV when I was in Ottawa, there's about four jobs there within six months. It looks like I was having a hard time keeping a job. But people would come to me and say we've got this new project. We really need you on this and off I'd be put to something new, awesome experience for me, because I had experiences I never would have dreamed of. But take those opportunities when they come. And I think sometimes you can overthink it too, right, like, oh, should I take it or shouldn't I? Let's give it a try. If you sort of approach it that way, new things really can be great things that you hadn't even thought of, right.

Johanna: 44:03

Well, I mean, that brings us back to your before you became a police officer. You wanted to be a firefighter. I did, I did.

Rhonda: 44:10

So after university I just that's what I had wanted to do for years and I applied to an agency that was hiring I mean, keep in mind, this is 1994.

Rhonda: 44:23

And I applied and they sent me to do my physical testing at the University of Toronto and I passed all that and did all of the things that needed to be done as it went through the process. And the last piece of the process was writing a mechanical aptitude test and I was speaking with the deputy chief of that fire department, had an opportunity to speak with him and he said if you get 70% on that exam you're pretty much guaranteed an interview. So I studied and studied, and studied and I got 73% and didn't get an interview. And two individuals where I was working at the time, who knew the owner of the private investigation company where I was working, said look, rhonda, I don't think they're quite ready to hire you, they're not really interested in a female, but we have a great career for you and we think you'd be perfect. So you know, one door closed but another one opened and no regrets.

Johanna: 45:12

Yeah, yeah, cause you could have been like well, if I wasn't good for that role, why would I be good for this other role? Right, that's also challenging and very male dominated, but you're like let's go for it. Yeah, there's got to be an element. What I'm hearing from you, ronna, is like curiosity faith that'll work out. They say. The difference between optimism and hope is that optimism is you believe that things will get better and they just will, whereas hope is like you know they will get better because you believe in yourself that you can do what it takes to make things better. So it sounds like you were a person that had a lot of hope for yourself, the future, and that has led you to where you are today, which I think is very inspiring for women to know and to hear.

Katie: 45:54

And more interesting, like I love hearing these stories of how people got where they are, because often it's just it of a twisty-turny kind of journey and that's more interesting, right, like it's not always just this then that I will end up here and obviously you've learned so much about yourself and things you never even imagined, and I just think that's fun and interesting to hear about.

Johanna: 46:25

I'm cognizant of the time and I want to dive into your philosophy and principles around leadership people first. So you did mention in your pre interview about people first. Okay, so when you were commissioned to be the is that how you say it when you were the CEO, when you became the commanding officer of F division, commissioner Brenda Leckie, who's now retired she said this about you. She said Rhonda, and I got this from a news article. Your trailblazer, your outstanding experience with the RCMP and passion for developing and supporting all employees of the force is so commendable. You also indicated in your notes to us was that it always comes back to people how you treat them, how you build relationships, which we already talked in depth about, especially when it comes to mentors and sponsors, and how you lead with integrity. So how has your mindset shaped your leadership approach and how can it help women break through leadership barriers?

Rhonda: 47:12

To me it's all about people. You know, I've been asked lots what's your leadership advice, what's your leadership secret? Different things. To me, it's take care of your people, because unless you are a single person with a single company and you do everything for that company, with no employees or no one around you supporting you which I don't really think exists you can't even find that person because you always have to rely on somebody, be it sales or, you know, connecting with people. But in my what I do here.

Rhonda: 47:44

So in Saskatchewan, the RCMP covers a big part of the geography of this province and when you total up every First Nation chief, every mayor and every reeve that we cover, off small villages right through to larger centers, there's 833 of them in this province, and if anyone thinks Rhonda Blackmore can deal with 833 of those individuals, that is ridiculous. I have to make sure my people are well positioned, feeling supported, feel respected in what they do, so that they take that positivity out and they do that engagement and they support their community. So if they're not feeling respected or supported, that positivity is not going to go with them either. It's going to come across very differently. And so supporting your people, it it just, uh, it's infectious. It is because, uh, when they feel supported, it is amazing what they will do. You know, if you suggest something they surprise you every single time with I get a product back every time that's better than what I could have imagined or what I would have produced myself, and that's through supports, through. Again. You know, it's those little comments Great job on a file Like that's outstanding, right, it goes so far just to say those kind of things.

Rhonda: 49:09

Recognizing informally, formally, all of those pieces are so critical and when people feel like you know the CEO, the CEO, whatever, wherever they work, supports them, they are going to deliver the way you want them to. If you're in it for just your career, I had a brilliant deputy commissioner many years ago when I was still a constable in Ottawa told me, take care of your people and your career takes care of itself. And it's really good advice. It's true, because if you're focused on your career and leave the people you know sort of you know, in your wake, there's chaos, you're it's not, you're not going to be successful, whereas the other way around taking care of your people and they support you I people every day, my team makes me look good all the time. I love that quote. It's a great one.

Katie: 50:03

Yeah, that's really great and it is infectious. Like you said, right, it's not only I mean like role modeling in a way, but it's also people feel what they get from you, and then to be able to also have a model for how to do it, um, I just think that's really important. And again, just to emphasize, the little things we say and do have a big impact, and I think you've really nicely articulated that in a few different ways throughout your own career journey. Yeah, with that, joanna, I don't know, I'm looking at maybe moving. Do you want to move to our call to action or reflection question?

Johanna: 50:34

Yeah, let's do that. We'll start to wrap things up, okay. So, rhonda, we've talked about the glass ceiling. We know that progress doesn't stop with one person making it to the top. It's about pulling others up with us. So I'm going to share this final reflection question. And women, because we hope, although this season is about women in leadership, we do hope that our male audience is listening through this season as well, because they play an important role in regards to addressing the leadership gender gap, right? So here's the question Think about the spaces you're currently in, whether it's your workplace, your industry or your community. How can you help create opportunities for women to step into leadership right To address or mitigate or eliminate the leadership gender gap? So, rhonda, what's one piece of advice or final words that you'd like to leave with women aspiring to leadership roles in male-dominated industries, and anything that you'd like to share also for our male listeners?

Rhonda: 51:50

I think I would firstly say that support other women I've been. One of the bad leadership experiences I had was from another female and I think it was sort of I had to claw my way to get to here. Nobody's going to have it handed to them, and so it was referred to me once as the queen bee syndrome and, you know, detrimental. So support other women. We tend to be so hard on each other and I don't know why that is. You know we talk about having this community of support and it doesn't always come from within other women. So be supportive, recognize those opportunities when you have like. We have different opportunities for promotions here, and sometimes you sit on promotion boards, have different opportunities for promotions here, and sometimes you sit on promotion boards and when you, you know, maybe your female candidate didn't get the job, reach out to them and say, hey, I have some great feedback for you that I can offer you that might help you next time, like all of those little pieces of support that you can make a big difference for someone.

Rhonda: 52:54

And then the one thing I'd say you know, when you're that self-doubt um, as you probably have figured out, I'm a big quotes person. I love quotes. Um, I'm never the smartest person in the room, so I rely on other people who are far smarter than I. But there's a great quote, uh, that AA Milne wrote. Christopher Robin says to Pooh never forget that you're stronger than you seem, you're braver than you believe and you're smarter than you think. And you're braver than you believe and you're smarter than you think. And I think, if you remember that, it's great motivation to push people forward.

Johanna: 53:26

And that's applicable for women who are listening, or men, absolutely All genders, yes.

Katie: 53:32

Oh, that's a great quote. I like that one. Okay, katie, any final thoughts? Oh, just thanks, rhonda. This was a really great conversation, as I said before we started. Time will probably fly by once we get into it and I feel like we could keep talking for another hour, but I just want to thank you. You're a busy woman, so thanks for taking the time. I got a lot out of that just for myself. I know our listeners will really enjoy what you had to say, so just thank you.

Johanna: 53:54

We're starting, we're kicking off Cohort 7 for our Warming Up Ignite the Leader in you program on Tuesday March 18th. So some of the things that you said have just Katie our meeting after our podcast, to kind of.

Rhonda: 54:05

Yeah, I feel like invigorated for that. We're going to review what we're doing on Tuesday and we're very excited now that we've chatted with you.

Johanna: 54:09

One of the reasons, honestly, that we do the podcast is it's about where do you find that intrinsic source of motivation and inspiration to keep going, even in challenging times? And the podcast although many people could say it's just one extra added thing and you're too busy, let's not do it. Sometimes you need to. Here's another Simon Sinek quote sometimes you need to take the time out of your busy schedule to sharpen your tools, because the sharper they are, the more effective you'll be at what you need to do. So this podcast helps us sharpen our tools and we're so excited to have met with you because you've really inspired that within us. So thank you so much for taking the time to meet with us. Your story is a powerful reminder that breaking the glass ceiling isn't just about individual success, but making leadership more accessible for everyone, especially women who come next. So to our listeners if today's episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who needs to hear it. Let's keep the conversation going and we look forward to seeing you next time on Tackle Tuesday. Thank you.